If you are suffering, then 'no-self' & Truth is NOT understood!

[puporing]

@Bandman You gotta keep digging where that anxiety is coming from. I used to suffer from a lot of anxiety, it was from my relationship with my biological parents, it could be something like that or something else for you. Keep digging. Lot of depression, anxiety, and stuff like that is a more relative problem than a spiritual/absolute problem. Don't skip those steps.

Edited May 17, 2022 by puporing

[Raptorsin7]

The irony of Leo talking about toxic spirituality.

Suffering is that the heart of spiritual pursuit, 

To try and divorce them and then justify it is madness 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Raptorsin7

[Carl-Richard]

5 hours ago, ardacigin said:

The problem is that only %5 of mind system is 'online' so to speak to receive the insights and integrate them. The rest 95% is still completely oblivious to whatever wisdom that arises in a psychedelic session. That's why no actual stickiness overlaps to your life when afterglow ends. 

These assumptions are not going to revise themselves by spending the rest 99% of your life in unconsciousness. There lies the problem with the 'mainly psychedelic user, little to no meditation' style of spirituality.

These two points summarize why I favor organic states (and its associated techniques) as a measurement for spiritual growth. You're training the very ground which produces all states to hold non-duality: every cell in the body, every energetic movement. Temporary states of profound insight have both standalone value and their own place in spiritual growth, but focusing on the source of all states, I feel is absolutely central.

[RMQualtrough]

I really think OP is gonna start selling coaching sessions soon. Idno why.

[_Archangel_]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

It is such a stupid expectation to tell people to be Ramana.

I was taking him as an example of what it think a armonious Full Awakening can look like produce. Of course i would't set him as an axpectation haha.
I'm just open to the possibility that if someone has a severe illness and existencially suffer from it, MAYBE is not fully awakened

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

God awakens, then God goes back to dreaming.

By your logic God could never become a human because God is fully realized. But obviously God can lose consciousness, which is how you were born.

@Leo GuraNone of what i've said denies an involution of consciousness
I would agree that that God can go back to sleep. 

What i'm sensing is that while spychedelics can give you a God Realization still this doesn't translate in the complete eradication of the tendency of God to stick to the Ego as a means to experience it self in day to day life, with the Suffering that follows all of that.

I agree that God realization can come indipendently of the state of body and mind, but i think a trained mind and body are needed to sustain a Sahaja Samadhi in day to day life, otherwise certain tendecies and attachments reform and you are back in a state of craving and suffering.

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

I will bet all my money that if you take any modern spiritual teacher and stick an icepick in his balls you will see him suffer.

Lol i love your style
Certianly many teachers overestimate themselves. I appreciate your honesty and your answers.

Edited May 17, 2022 by _Archangel_

[Fernanda]

Maybe the problem is not suffering itself, it's trying to avoid it, to deny it, to demonize it, to falsify it and to anihilate its possibility. If you investigate deeply you will see that suffering can be an impulse to awakening. There is beauty in the end of suffering. It's a mechanism for rebirth. It always ends if you don’t resist it. No way to avoid the storm.

Edited May 18, 2022 by Fernanda

[puporing]

@Bandman Welcome. Yes you can do both!  

[Razard86]

6 hours ago, Cykaaaa said:

This whole debate on this forum lately between the buddhists/vipassana practicioners and Leo is so fucking stupid. 

Basically as I see it, the buddhist side is clinging to their ideas of eradicating suffering, equanimity of the mind, "permanent" awakening and equating this with Truth. Nooo my way is definitely the truest, Leo you are deluded!! Leo you can't make this so easy, you haven't meditated the shit out of yourself for 30 years!! etc. etc. I'm so sick of it.

I think that Leo more or less understands the other side. He talked about embodiment and baseline state and admits he's got a lot of work on that front.

The buddhist side doesn't want to admit that there are states and levels of understanding inaccessible through only meditation and manual practices. Basically if they admitted that they're missing something valuable, doubt would arise in their minds and they'd have to rethink their worldview.

Stop fucking arguing and walk the middle path. Half manual practices, equanimity and embodiment, half discovering ever more infinite levels of Consciousness and understanding through psychedelics. Or don't, if you don't want to. But at least stop demonizing the other side. 

This...you have pretty much summed it up!! Great post. I believe meditating while using psychedelics sparingly is the best path to raise in Consciousness. I do think the baseline is more important though, but psychedelics are a really great tool as well.

[Shambhu]

Pain and suffering are not synonymous.  If one person has their balls stapled, it may cause them suffering, but someone else may pay a person to staple their balls.  Both will most likely experience pain, but only the latter experiences pleasure.  As humans, we all experience pain, but suffering is optional.  There is a famous Buddhist parable about the two arrows that is used to illuminate this point.

Not only is pain and suffering different from one another, so is mind and Consciousness.  Pain and suffering take place in the mind, but Consciousness is untouched by them both.  These, along with all other phenomenon, are simply appearances in Consciousness.  Consciousness (or God if you prefer) does not wake or sleep.  Consciousness does not expand or contract.  Because Consciousness is Absolute, it is unchanging and perfect.  

When you realize your true nature as pure Consciousness, there is the possibility for the end of suffering, but pain will continue as long as there is a body.  While the complete cessation of suffering may be rare, we have many examples of those who have reached the goal.  This is even the litmus test provided in spiritual texts.  Here is quote from one of my favorites, the Tripura Rahasya:

Quote

The fruit of absolute knowledge is the destruction of all sorrows and the attainment of fearlessness. 

 

[seriousman24]

Suffering would never allow more suffering to exist, only love can do that, it is the function of suffering to not exist or to exist only in the past or in the future, but as we can see suffering exists in the present, that is because love is capable of loving more than itself so it loves suffering, when it loves 1 suffering it stops suffering because the purpose/function the very sensation and everything around suffering means "to not exist, to wish that it ends, to have never even existed in the first place and so on", so if you're suffering you can blame love but then you get confused because love doesn't hurt, love is always infinite(ultimate love), with suffering it becomes finite(love+suffering), so I blame neither love nor suffering I blame time itself, time is what allows for both love and suffering to get attached to something that isn't anything by itself which is the material universe, if we had only love we would be timeless(has to be endless/etc), if we had only suffering there wouldn't be any time(has to end as fast as possible/etc), having both seems to be what allows time which I think is what allows or is big part of what allows duality, me and other to actually exist, with me and other being indeed one of the weirdest things, same as existing versus non existing which I conjecture to be love and suffering(finished) respectively, I guess the "universe" is time, suffering, love and space(materialized nothingness?) put together to see what happens if you want.

It's weird because I can see how suffering needs love but it's harder to see the opposite, I do see it here and there, I think suffering creates more infinity, it creates the impossible, it's the catalyst of the impossible, maybe.

[LSD-Rumi]

@Leo Gura So again, waking up vs growing up?

[zurew]

7 hours ago, Fernanda said:

If you investigate deeply you will see that suffering can be an impulse to awakening. There is beauty in the end of suffering.

Exactly, just look at Eckhart Tolle.

[Gesundheit2]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

No it isn't. You have no clue yet how deeply you can suffer.

How deeply suffering can get is infinite, and therefore it's irrelevant for our human purposes, because it's outside of our control.

Spiritual work is not about making outlandish feats in regards to withstanding horrible levels of suffering. It's about incorporating higher wisdom into daily human life in order to reduce unnecessary suffering that's within our control.

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

When your life goes wrong enough you will understand.

Lolz.

[knakoo]

18 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The problem with this view is that all your so-called enlightened teachers will suffer if you hit them over the head with a hammer.

Why do you insist that they would suffer in that case ? I cannot understand it.

You think the pain would make them suffer ? Obviously pain is not the same as suffering. I remember you mentioning in a old video of a master receiving dentist drillings with no pain medication, with a "smile on his face". 

You think losing mental faculties would make them suffer ? If there is zero identification and attachement to the body or personality why would they suffer ?

[ZzzleepingBear]

21 hours ago, ardacigin said:

If you are suffering even in the subtlest of forms, you are not accessing the truth.

So if I where to admit that I suffer sometimes. Then what else could that be called if not the truth?

This sounds like some sort or neglectful gatekeeping of truth as a black and white state of being.

I would much rather word it like this.

"If you are suffering even in the subtlest of forms, you are then presented with a unique oppertunity to acessing richer truths."

Everyone has some sort of level of acess to truth, wheter they are aware of that or not. If you have ever helped anyone for the sake of helping alone, you have then acted on behalf of goodness and truth.

[Breakingthewall]

10 hours ago, Shambhu said:

As humans, we all experience pain, but suffering is optional

Suffering is part of life. Do you think that Ramakrishna did not experience suffering in his long agony from throat cancer without any palliative care? we tend to think that suffering is just the anxiety we suffer from not accepting reality as it is, but we live in very protected environments, we have a healthy body, etc. our relationship with human suffering is normally superficial. Is it possible to have that kind of long agony without experience suffering? I don't think so. When suffering comes, you will experience it, even you are Jesus Christ

Edited May 18, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[Consilience]

2 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Suffering is part of life. Do you think that Ramakrishna did not experience suffering in his long agony from throat cancer without any palliative care? we tend to think that suffering is just the anxiety we suffer from not accepting reality as it is, but we live in very protected environments, we have a healthy body, etc. our relationship with human suffering is normally superficial. Is it possible to have that kind of long agony without experience suffering? I don't think so. When suffering comes, you will experience it, even you are Jesus Christ

You fundamentally misunderstand the nature of suffering man. This comment and your prior calling those who wish to end suffering cowardice is evidence of this. 

[Breakingthewall]

4 minutes ago, Consilience said:

You fundamentally misunderstand the nature of suffering man. This comment and your prior calling those who wish to end suffering cowardice is evidence of this. 

Maybe. I have the perception that individual life is based on suffering. being a separate individual implies egoism, without egoism you dissolve. even a plant is selfish. and selfishness is the source of suffering. As long as you exist as an individual, you will suffer. it is not possible to stop doing it. you can stop multiplying the suffering with an oversized ego, but you need an ego to exist as an individual, and the ego is selfishness, so suffering. there is nothing wrong with that imo. You can accept the suffering

[axiom]

The whole notion of suffering depends on the locus of attention. 

A person suffers. If you consider yourself a person then you will suffer.

[Leo Gura]

13 hours ago, Bandman said:

@Leo Gura But Leo, shouldn't consciousness of the Real eradicate all self created mental suffering, by recognizing it as not being real? You have said that we are deluding ourselves into thinking we are human, and deeper than that, the belief that we are a conscious entity/soul. If we transcend that belief, shouldn't our mind stop creating this suffering?

Everything is dictated by your state of consciousness. And you current state of consciousness is nowhere high enough to look past all possible suffering. Even a decade of meditation will not be enough to access the states of consciousness you would need to overlook all suffering.

Quote

Is it possible to transcend this delusion, and live human life without this self created mental suffering? I understand that if you would hit me in the head I would still suffer, but the physical suffering I have is nothing compared to the amount of mental suffering I cause myself. I suffer when sitting on the couch, having feelings of anxiety and deeply identifying with them, giving me deluded fears that I will never stop suffering this, causing mental loops of fear and suffering, projecting into the future, and fearing that I will never have a good life because of my internal situation, that it will cause my cognition to falter and that I'll never tap into my highest potential.

All sorts of things are theoretically possible. It's possible to do a triple back flip while juggling 3 razor sharp knives. The question is, how much work are you willing to do to train yourself to do it?

Quote

I know you have said the highest awakening will destroy the universe... I'm not aiming for that. I'm aiming for a sage's life like you made that video about... I just love life and myself and that's why I hate these thought Identifications and delusions and feelings of fear. I want to transcend it to make the best out of life and be way more conscious of it. I can feel when the anxiety is pulling the holistic consciousness away from me, dumbing me down, not letting me reach my highest potential of mind.

You can certainly make a lot of progress to reduce your mental suffering and anxiety. But it will still require a ton of training and work.

And this should not be conflated with pure consciousness.

It is a technical mistake to conflate these two things. Which is what this whole discussion is doing.

Make a distinction between awakened consciousness vs training the human mind/body to respond or behave in certain ways that you might find desirable.