"You cannot maintain human function at the highest levels"

[RickyFitts]

2 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

Yeah, he does call it the natural state. He also calls it as the stateless state which I think is a better description since it doesn't come and go. But natural also seem fitting since it's unaltered. Not to put too much emphasis on the words. It's all right here and now. No matter how ordinary now might seem to be.

I like that, never heard that before!

You're right, though, best not to put too much emphasis on the words. I like how Adya suggests to approach the whole question of enlightenment, he says that rather than asking, 'How do I become enlightened?', instead we should be asking ourselves, 'How do I UNenlighten myself?' 

[WelcometoReality]

12 hours ago, RickyFitts said:

he says that rather than asking, 'How do I become enlightened?', instead we should be asking ourselves, 'How do I UNenlighten myself?' 

Yeah, that's the better question to ask since the former presumes that enlightenment is a form of attainment but it's actually seeing through the illusion. 

[BipolarGrowth]

21 hours ago, Gesundheit2 said:

Labels have minor metaphysical importance to me, if any.

In practical terms, altered states is a term that refers to states of consciousness that aren't typical to human experience according to most humans. An enlightened master is not in a normal state, they're most likely in an altered state that is likely more functional/healthier than the average sober state.

Two “common” states in spiritual practice in which no voluntary human action is possible by the very definition of the states themselves are the formless realm/jhana often called neither perception nor non-perception and cessation/fruition/nirodha samapatti. There are plenty of other states in which functioning at the human level is impossible, but these are good to use as examples as there are thousands of people in the modern day who have reached these states. The Buddha saw nirodha samapatti as being the highest temporary attainment which goes to show that viewing states distinct from regular human functioning as the highest is likely not uncommon in those who reach such states. 

[Gesundheit2]

@BipolarGrowth Altered states is a distinct thing from high consciousness states. You can have altered states with low or high or average consciousness levels. And you can have sober states with low or high or average consciousness levels. They are two different parameters. An altered state with low consciousness doesn't produce awakening. It produces delusions. Altering your state of consciousness is not enough if you lack awareness.

[zurew]

26 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

Altered states is a distinct thing from high consciousness states. You can have altered states with low or high or average consciousness levels. And you can have sober states with low or high or average consciousness levels. They are two different parameters. An altered state with low consciousness doesn't produce awakening. It produces delusions. Altering your state of consciousness is not enough if you lack awareness.

Would you say, that you can be really highly conscious, when you are really drunk (when you are so drunk that you can barely speak)?

Also, i would say that even if what you are saying is true (that we can make a really clear distinction between states and levels of consciousness), there seems to be limits to certain states how much consciousness you can hold.

I wouldn't say, that you can hold the same level of consiousness being really drunk compared to being sober or being high.

So being in a certain state seems to determine how conscious you can get. 

Edited May 19, 2022 by zurew

[RickyFitts]

18 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

Yeah, that's the better question to ask since the former presumes that enlightenment is a form of attainment but it's actually seeing through the illusion. 

Yeah, exactly - what we seek is eternally present, it's just a matter of perceiving clearly.

[RMQualtrough]

Imagine trying to go to work tripping heavily on DMT lol.

[BipolarGrowth]

3 hours ago, Gesundheit2 said:

@BipolarGrowth Altered states is a distinct thing from high consciousness states. You can have altered states with low or high or average consciousness levels. And you can have sober states with low or high or average consciousness levels. They are two different parameters. An altered state with low consciousness doesn't produce awakening. It produces delusions. Altering your state of consciousness is not enough if you lack awareness.

And the examples I gave are some of the highest conscious altered states that a decent number of people have reached. The chance that someone reaches either of those states with a low level of awareness is incredibly, incredibly low. 

[PenguinPablo]

To take on the human and operate within its domain assumes a certain level of ignorance and craving. 

[Gesundheit2]

8 hours ago, zurew said:

Would you say, that you can be really highly conscious, when you are really drunk (when you are so drunk that you can barely speak)?

Also, i would say that even if what you are saying is true (that we can make a really clear distinction between states and levels of consciousness), there seems to be limits to certain states how much consciousness you can hold.

I wouldn't say, that you can hold the same level of consiousness being really drunk compared to being sober or being high.

So being in a certain state seems to determine how conscious you can get. 

I use the words "higher" and "lower" rather poetically in regards to consciousness. In reality, we can't quantify consciousness, nobody can. Any claim of higher levels is purely subjective and does not pass the objective test.

Though, there are objective tests for lower consciousness levels, such as Glasgow Coma Scale. You can determine the level of consciousness of a person through using certain criteria based on the sober conscious state. But you can't measure higher levels of consciousness because there's no standard to contrast your current state against. Though, you can create your own standards. For example, in my opinion, the main criteria for higher consciousness are (1) functionality and (2) peace of mind. The more you achieve of both together in a maintainable way in the long run, the more conscious you likely are. If you have either of them at a high level but still lack balance of the other, then chances are you aren't at high consciousness yet, but likely half-way through. This has been my experience, at least. And all the signs point to that conclusion.

So back to your questions, I don't think you can hold high consciousness while drunk, but that does not suggest even slightly the possibility that other "drug-or-otherwise-high" states can hold more consciousness than the sober state. I have found that the optimal state is the sober state. The more pure and unpolluted it is, the more consciousness it can hold. "High" states are often more creative but come with the risk of delusional thoughts. You will not believe how many delusional thoughts I have gained through "high" meditative states then filtered out of my mind. This recognition becomes really clear on the comedown. In my experience, it's been hard to tell what thoughts are delusional during the high until recently.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Gesundheit2

[Gesundheit2]

6 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

And the examples I gave are some of the highest conscious altered states that a decent number of people have reached. The chance that someone reaches either of those states with a low level of awareness is incredibly, incredibly low. 

Probably group-think and generationally-inherited dogma.

I don't think the states you mentioned are high consciousness states, rather just altered states with relatively/mildly low levels of consciousness. Keep in mind that most of these Hindu-Buddhist stories originated before science, so the probability of delusion is pretty high. Science contributes to less delusion/more consciousness, which the stories lack.

Here's a more down-to-earth explanation for what I said above: No-mind states have nothing to do with high consciousness, in fact they have more to do with low consciousness. You can be highly conscious and still think, more properly and effectively even. Meditative states with no thoughts/perception are just altered states. Oneness is not a high consciousness state. It's low consciousness, because it doesn't allow for duality. Non-duality is a higher state than duality, because it allows duality, includes, and transcends it into oneness, unlike pure oneness. So that's a pre-trans fallacy. Ken Wilber refers to this phenomenon of mistaking lower states for higher states as elevationism. High consciousness is an integral thing. The more refined, well-rounded, and holistic your understanding of reality is, the more conscious you are. You can't just drug/alter your way into high consciousness. It's not possible.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Gesundheit2

[Gesundheit2]

10 hours ago, PenguinPablo said:

To take on the human and operate within its domain assumes a certain level of ignorance and craving. 

Says who?

[PenguinPablo]

On 5/20/2022 at 6:01 AM, Gesundheit2 said:

Says who?

it becomes self-evident as your spiritual journey unfolds. increasingly so...

[Gesundheit2]

@PenguinPablo Craving and ignorance are two different things. Your claims don't make any sense.

[Chrisd]

When I think consciousness I'm thinking a certain level of functionality

If I'm enlightened then I'm more in tune with reality so I'm more functional

[peanutspathtotruth]

Couldn't it be that there's choices that Truth (we/I) can make, and that, by seeing itself, there isn't just one clear-cut way of continuing after waking up?

A) integrating Truth (itself) to the highest possible degree into being and enjoying this human, limited experience
B) leaving the limited out of choice for wanting to rest in unbound infinity without embodying itself in anything specific

aka staying/integrating/embodying or leaving/transcending? 

[RMQualtrough]

On 29/05/2022 at 7:59 PM, Chrisd said:

When I think consciousness I'm thinking a certain level of functionality

If I'm enlightened then I'm more in tune with reality so I'm more functional

That's the medical type definition. In this case you couldn't function as a human nah... Imagine not knowing where your hands end and the world begins, shit like that. Or your hands warping around into frog paws and little plasticine soldiers. You're legit insane and nonfunctional then.

[Razard86]

On 5/17/2022 at 6:36 AM, Gesundheit2 said:

I have never thought of any of the altered states I've experienced so far as "higher" or "lower" in any way, really just altered. I've experienced depression for years and then euphoria for months straight. The main "high" and "low" that I would attribute to those states were on the emotional level, as in I was in a low mood, then a high/elated mood. And that's it. Now, I experience highs more often during and after meditation. Sometimes I experience lows, but not so much. But the point is that your description of higher states sounds arbitrary to me.

On the other hand, brain functionality seems to correspond to altered states accordingly, so "higher" states tend to be more creative and focused but come with the risk of delusional thoughts, while "lower" states tend to be less creative and more contracted, with the downside of closed-mindedness.

As for functionality, in retrospect I would say that the euphoric state had a negative effect on my human life and functionality, but the same applies to the depressed state, although in a different way. So by no means I would claim that just because it'd produced higher mood then it should hinder human functionality. In fact, and like I said above, the more conscious I am becoming, the more functional my human life is getting. So again, it seems arbitrary to assume that higher consciousness hinders functionality. It would be more accurate (from my pov) to say that altered states do hinder human functionality, while higher consciousness can correct and set it back on track.

So yes, ALTERED states are definitely out of alignment with basic survival. I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm disagreeing with the "higher" quality that you're attaching to the altered states. Sure you might feel high, that's what most people feel when they smoke some recreational drug. Doesn't mean that they now possess higher consciousness, nor that they did during the high.

We conventionally refer to radio waves as higher and lower in frequency. But that's just a convention. In reality, higher and lower are arbitrary, and can be flipped upside-down. The same here with consciousness. What you refer to as high-consciousness/low-functional can be referred to as low-consciousness/low-functional, if we take functionality as the criterion for judgement. After all, how do you distinguish between high and low consciousness?

.....Ummmm you are seriously lacking in understanding. But I guess my issue with it is my personal problem.

At higher levels of consciousness you would not even identify as a human. It isn't an ALTERED STATE. If your TRUE NATURE is infinite formlessness then identifying as human based on how you are looking at it would be the TRUE ALTERED STATE. I told you this in past....you are not looking at things clearly. 

Everything you saying in regards to consciousness is from the point of the ego, from the point of a finite being. The whole point of meditation and spirituality is to connect with your formless self, YOUR TRUE SELF. Your human body as a finite self is your false self. So yes....the term higher consciousness is adequate because it is talking about the process of getting closer to the infinite singularity that you actually are. I really need you to humble yourself and instead of throwing accusations and twisting the words of Leo....actually ask questions and seek to understand. Because....its not a good look to twist the words of someone and try to point out their flaws when not only do you misunderstand what they are saying....you don't even have the correct foundational understanding of spirituality. 

You are an infinite singularity, you are the creator, you are me, you are Leo, you are everyone on this forum, you are the universe, you are the source of everything. The higher you get in consciousness the closer you get to that state. How in the world can you function as a finite being....if you are stuck in a state....where you are traveling dimensions. You have clearly not accessed the higher states to even understand any of this and are trying to speak from your limited low awareness state. At the highest levels...ego death is normal, its not even anything special its a given. 

[Carl-Richard]

I like to define spiritual growth as the gradual unwinding of the cyclical patterns of your being, which translates to distancing yourself from your physicality (and the associated mentality as well), as the physical is fundamentally based on cyclical movements, oscillations, vibrations, 1s and 0s. To be driven by the physical and the cyclical is the definition of compulsive behavior; of instinctive, animalistic or unconscious tendencies. Spirituality and consciousness is about breaking out of all that and establishing meaningful and streamlined behavior, and eventually transcending it all. 

Now, growth as a linear concept is pointing somewhere, towards the extremes, like the states achievable during seated/immobile meditation, ecstatic/delirious trances, or ultimately mahasamadhi. All of these are considered highly "dysfunctional" when you're identified with the physical, but they're also in a sense the peak of spirituality, which again goes beyond the physical. What you're looking for is more along the lines of the concession of the Bodhisattva, who chooses to return to the illusion and take on the burden of a physical existence in order to awaken the world. That requires a kind of balance which lets you keep one foot in both worlds, which can be immensely functional.

[Gesundheit2]

14 hours ago, peanutspathtotruth said:

Couldn't it be that there's choices that Truth (we/I) can make, and that, by seeing itself, there isn't just one clear-cut way of continuing after waking up?

A) integrating Truth (itself) to the highest possible degree into being and enjoying this human, limited experience
B) leaving the limited out of choice for wanting to rest in unbound infinity without embodying itself in anything specific

aka staying/integrating/embodying or leaving/transcending? 

A is optional, B is inevitable. But I would argue that there is virtue/bravery in pursuing A, and that B is a bypassing technique and an ego coping mechanism.

We're here for a reason. God wanted us to be here. Why throw the baby out with the bathwater?