"You cannot maintain human function at the highest levels"

[Gesundheit2]

Quote

If you were maximally conscious you would not be able to type on this forum. So the fact that you're here in human form tells me you ain't got it. You cannot maintain human function at the highest levels.

The notion that you are maximally conscious is laughable. That is the astonishing delusion.

A recent quote from Leo in the most recent discussion about Ralston's views on psychedelics.

The claim here is that high consciousness and human functionality are somehow antithetical to each other. It is an absurd thing to claim, and I'm not exactly sure why nobody is calling out this nonsense, and kind of shocked that Leo is still broadcasting this idea.

So without more introductions or any further ado, let's dig right into it.

Here are my thoughts:

1. Let's assume that it is true that the more conscious you get the less functional you become as a human being. Well, that means that this alleged "high consciousness/God state" does not include human functionality, which is at the very least extremely suspicious to me.
2. Next, and on the same note, let's say it is true and we don't really have a say in the matter and we don't understand why it has to be this way because we are stupid humans with limited minds and ultimately because we are "not awake". So to me it sounds like this alleged "high consciousness/God state" comes at a price, so that means it needs resources, like brains and ATP and all that. Basically, what that means is that there are physical brains that control the states and functionalities of consciousness. And these physical brains are the ground for consciousness. There is no consciousness without a brain.
3. Next, and on the same note again, let's say that we are stupid humans again and we don't understand how we are fooling ourselves into believing in brains when in fact all that there is is consciousness. If that was truly the case, then why would God have this limitation? Why couldn't God be completely functional as a human while at the same time be God-realized? Limitation is inherent to form, and God is allegedly infinite formlessness, so why would finite form control infinite formlessness? How could it? I thought God the formless creates all forms with all the limitations, not the other way around. To me, this only means that it is actually the other way around, and that God lives inside the physical brain.
4. Let's say that we have 100 ATP particles in total (random number) that the brain is using to function and produce (1) consciousness and (2) human functionality. If that is true, then these two functionalities (1) are inherently merely physical brain functions (2) they share the same limited resources (3) therefore are limited/finite functionalities (4) therefore consciousness cannot be infinite, but rather a contemporary symptom of a physical brain. Consciousness can't be truly infinite if it requires energy or anything else. It could only be truly infinite if it was self-sufficient, which it doesn't seem to be the case at all. In fact, there are more evidence that it is not self-sufficient than evidence that it is.
5. Now, more to debunking the myth directly. In my experience, the more conscious I become the more functional I become as a human, so my experience so far actually seems to contradict and defy the claim that "I cannot maintain human function at the highest levels".
6. It actually doesn't make any logical sense why high consciousness would contradict human functionality. Like seriously, why would it? This question becomes especially prominent when you hear claims of Absolute Love, Freedom, Intelligence, and all that. Like anyone can basically intuit that these things would only contribute and amount to more functionality, not less.
7. You don't need to think so hard or be sophisticated. It doesn't take much wisdom or experience to see that actually less consciousness = less functionality. You are least functional when you are asleep, and someone is least functional when they are in a coma. That's low consciousness, not high at all. Even a child can attest to this.

I'm sure I left out some thoughts and that I haven't said everything that I wanted to say. I don't know how anyone could mentally masturbate their way out of what I said here, to me it seems pretty solid and concrete at least for now. But I am open to updating my thoughts if there are more convincing ones out there.

Thanks for reading, and I hope that you will find this at least somewhat beneficial.

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

Let's assume that it is true that the more conscious you get the less functional you become as a human being.

Careful, that wasn't my claim.

I was talking about the highest extremes of consciousness.

The more conscious you get the more functional you get, but after a certain point you can get so conscious that you will not even be able to walk.

It's like water. If you drink enough water it will kill you. That doesn't mean that every glass of water is slowly killing you.

Also, functionality is a relative matter that involves an alignment between you and your environment. In certain environments being low conscious is actually more functional.

[JosephKnecht]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The more conscious you get the more functional you get, but after a certain point you can get so conscious that you will not even be able to walk.

Leo is right. 

At very high levels, you can't function as a normal human. 

An extreme meditator can quiet the mind so much, that the mind will be completely empty of thoughts.

Now imagine living your daily life without having thoughts? It won't be functional for you since you will forget to put your pants up in the morning.  

[Gesundheit2]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The more conscious you get the more functional you get, but after a certain point you can get so conscious that you will not even be able to walk.

It's like water. If you drink enough water it will kill you. That doesn't mean that every glass of water is slowly killing you.

If it is like that, then why do you claim that the ultimate goal of this work is to keep drinking water till death?

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Also, functionality is a relative matter that involves an alignment between you and your environment. In certain environments being low conscious is actually more functional.

That sounds different from the kind of functionality you were talking about above. Before it was not possible to walk and talk with high consciousness, but now it seems like it is possible and there's no contradiction.

[Gesundheit2]

6 minutes ago, JosephKnecht said:

At very high levels, you can't function as a normal human.

Suggested for you to read:

 

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

If it is like that, then why do you claim that the ultimate goal of this work is to keep drinking water till death?

My ultimate goal is to see how far I can go. I don't know where the line is until I cross it. This line is crossed carefully and for brief periods of time in a healthy way. Obviously I am not trying to damage my body.

You can take some ketamine and be totally dysfunctional for 60 mins. Then you come back and resume survival. But now you understand what extremes of consciousness are possible and how radical they are, and why humans do not possess such consciousness by default: becuase you'd be dead long ago.

Quote

That sounds different from the kind of functionality you were talking about above. Before it was not possible to walk and talk with high consciousness, but now it seems like it is possible and there's no contradiction.

The highest extremes of consciousness will be so out of alignment with basic survival that you will not be able to walk.

[Gesundheit2]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

The highest extremes of consciousness will be so out of alignment with basic survival that you will not be able to walk.

I have never thought of any of the altered states I've experienced so far as "higher" or "lower" in any way, really just altered. I've experienced depression for years and then euphoria for months straight. The main "high" and "low" that I would attribute to those states were on the emotional level, as in I was in a low mood, then a high/elated mood. And that's it. Now, I experience highs more often during and after meditation. Sometimes I experience lows, but not so much. But the point is that your description of higher states sounds arbitrary to me.

On the other hand, brain functionality seems to correspond to altered states accordingly, so "higher" states tend to be more creative and focused but come with the risk of delusional thoughts, while "lower" states tend to be less creative and more contracted, with the downside of closed-mindedness.

As for functionality, in retrospect I would say that the euphoric state had a negative effect on my human life and functionality, but the same applies to the depressed state, although in a different way. So by no means I would claim that just because it'd produced higher mood then it should hinder human functionality. In fact, and like I said above, the more conscious I am becoming, the more functional my human life is getting. So again, it seems arbitrary to assume that higher consciousness hinders functionality. It would be more accurate (from my pov) to say that altered states do hinder human functionality, while higher consciousness can correct and set it back on track.

So yes, ALTERED states are definitely out of alignment with basic survival. I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm disagreeing with the "higher" quality that you're attaching to the altered states. Sure you might feel high, that's what most people feel when they smoke some recreational drug. Doesn't mean that they now possess higher consciousness, nor that they did during the high.

We conventionally refer to radio waves as higher and lower in frequency. But that's just a convention. In reality, higher and lower are arbitrary, and can be flipped upside-down. The same here with consciousness. What you refer to as high-consciousness/low-functional can be referred to as low-consciousness/low-functional, if we take functionality as the criterion for judgement. After all, how do you distinguish between high and low consciousness?

Edited May 17, 2022 by Gesundheit2

[BipolarGrowth]

There are certainly states in which there is nothing “human” or even slightly recognizable to the human sphere of experience left. There is no functioning whatsoever capable in these sort of states. 

[Gesundheit2]

6 minutes ago, BipolarGrowth said:

There are certainly states in which there is nothing “human” or even slightly recognizable to the human sphere of experience left. There is no functioning whatsoever capable in these sort of states. 

Would you say they are "higher" or "lower" states? Or simply just altered?

[Zeroguy]

34 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

Would you say they are "higher" or "lower" states? Or simply just altered?

Are you pulling advaita on us????

[WelcometoReality]

@Gesundheit2 That's some good points.

States come and go. If you're interested in exploring different states then that's fine but might be a distraction.

[BipolarGrowth]

1 hour ago, Gesundheit2 said:

Would you say they are "higher" or "lower" states? Or simply just altered?

To someone who is not threatened by the experience, it would almost always be subjectively viewed as “higher” in some way or another. This is of course just a relative comparison and does not mean it is “actually” higher. 
 

It could be equally valid in my opinion to view typical human experience as the altered state and some of those states as being something closer to an unaltered state although these concepts are superfluous at the end of the day. 

[Gesundheit2]

12 hours ago, Zeroguy said:

Are you pulling advaita on us????

Advaita does not recognize different states.

12 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

@Gesundheit2 That's some good points.

States come and go. If you're interested in exploring different states then that's fine but might be a distraction.

Thanks. I couldn't have put it better.

[Gesundheit2]

12 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

It could be equally valid in my opinion to view typical human experience as the altered state and some of those states as being something closer to an unaltered state although these concepts are superfluous at the end of the day. 

Labels have minor metaphysical importance to me, if any.

In practical terms, altered states is a term that refers to states of consciousness that aren't typical to human experience according to most humans. An enlightened master is not in a normal state, they're most likely in an altered state that is likely more functional/healthier than the average sober state.

[RickyFitts]

3 hours ago, Gesundheit2 said:

Labels have minor metaphysical importance to me, if any.

In practical terms, altered states is a term that refers to states of consciousness that aren't typical to human experience according to most humans. An enlightened master is not in a normal state, they're most likely in an altered state that is likely more functional/healthier than the average sober state.

I think of it more in the way Adyashanti talks about enlightenment, he refers to it as the 'natural' state. Whereas human egoic consciousness is a bit fucked up, not to put too fine a point on it.

[WelcometoReality]

35 minutes ago, RickyFitts said:

I think of it more in the way Adyashanti talks about enlightenment, he refers to it as the 'natural' state. Whereas human egoic consciousness is a bit fucked up, not to put too fine a point on it.

Yeah, he does call it the natural state. He also calls it as the stateless state which I think is a better description since it doesn't come and go. But natural also seem fitting since it's unaltered. Not to put too much emphasis on the words. It's all right here and now. No matter how ordinary now might seem to be.

[amanen]

The highest levels of consciousness I have reached have made regular functioning practically impossible.

Some examples:

Usually I completely disidentify as the human body which makes movement extremely hard because I cant comprehend why I would even try to survive. Other times I dont even know if I have my eyes open or closed, because I collapse that duality, so I cannot distinguish between the two supposedly separate states.

At other times all of symbolic language collapses, alongside the illusion of memory, and everything becomes meaningless, so reading any symbols will be like reading an alien language.

Or I get into a state where I see the Truth so clearly that I am having difficulty sustaining breathing alone due to the amount of euphoria accompanying the realization of Truth.

 

You can probably reach a relatively higher state of consciousness while still retaining your normal abilities of survival, perhaps even enhancing them, but at the highest levels it almost always makes it impossible to act in a normal way.

[Gesundheit2]

8 minutes ago, amanen said:

Usually I completely disidentify as the human body which makes movement extremely hard because I cant comprehend why I would even try to survive.

Cant' comprehend = low consciousness.

8 minutes ago, amanen said:

Other times I dont even know if I have my eyes open or closed, because I collapse that duality, so I cannot distinguish between the two supposedly separate states.

Can't distinguish = low consciousness.

8 minutes ago, amanen said:

At other times all of symbolic language collapses, alongside the illusion of memory, and everything becomes meaningless, so reading any symbols will be like reading an alien language.

Can't read/understand = low consciousness.

8 minutes ago, amanen said:

Or I get into a state where I see the Truth so clearly that I am having difficulty sustaining breathing alone due to the amount of euphoria accompanying the realization of Truth.

Confusion = low consciousness.

[amanen]

35 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

Cant' comprehend = low consciousness.

Can't distinguish = low consciousness.

Can't read/understand = low consciousness.

Confusion = low consciousness.

No, not trying to survive means you are in such a high consciousness you do not identify at all with the relative manifestation, but the absolute.

As for the not distinguishing part, here you literally collapse the duality of two states and merge them to be one (as they truly are), so this cannot be said to be lower consciousness either.

As for the inability to read, this itself is a very low consciousness ability and is only needed in relatively low survival consciousness.

And euphoria is not confusion.

[Gesundheit2]

32 minutes ago, amanen said:

No, not trying to survive means you are in such a high consciousness you do not identify at all with the relative manifestation, but the absolute.

Distinguish between an altered state and high consciousness. They are not the same.

High consciousness does not negate the relative. Why would it?

32 minutes ago, amanen said:

As for the not distinguishing part, here you literally collapse the duality of two states and merge them to be one (as they truly are), so this cannot be said to be lower consciousness either.

It would be high consciousness if you were able to see the two states and then choose to collapse them consciously, but since you weren't even able to distinguish between them, then that was not possible for you, so it was not optional. You were forced into not being able to distinguish, basically you were forced into low consciousness. High consciousness has the ability to distinguish, because distinction is a feature of the relative mind, and like I said above high consciousness does not negate the relative in any way. It only adds on top of it.

By the way, collapsing duality is not as things truly are, but let's keep that to another discussion.

32 minutes ago, amanen said:

As for the inability to read, this itself is a very low consciousness ability and is only needed in relatively low survival consciousness.

It does not matter what reading is for. If you once had the ability to do something then somehow lost it, that means you have downgraded, not upgraded.

32 minutes ago, amanen said:

And euphoria is not confusion.

It's not the euphoric state that is confused. It's that you were "seeing/realizing" the "Truth". It is confusion because absolute truth is not an object that you can see/realize. It's a little bit hard to explain, so I'll just give you this one.