Peter Ralston NEW statement about psychedelics

[vladorion]

What he means is they don't increase consciousness in a permanent way. It's clear from the next sentence.

They take you to higher states by affecting your neurochemistry, whereas spiritual practice takes you there by clearing the gunk that's in the way.

Having a pump at the gym is useless if your muscles don't grow bigger and stronger as a result of it.

[Blackhawk]

Why do you care about what some dude says?

[UnbornTao]

On 5/15/2022 at 9:16 PM, Leo Gura said:

1) Baseline is not the same as "don't increase consciousness". Baseline is important but it is not the only factor in this work. To boil everything down to baseline and poo-poo all peaks is wrong.

2) Trips affect your mind in powerful ways that stays with you for the rest of your life.

I am not high 24/7, but after all my trips I can look at my body and recognize it as God. And many other insights. Too many to list.

Peter holds insight as distinct from direct experience, I think. He does admit that psychedelics help produce insights but not direct consciousness, because it is you who does that -- an intermediary can't do it for you. 

Besides, he does acknowledge that they can influence the brain and mind.

I fear we're misunderstanding Peter because the way he holds certain distinctions is different from ours, sometimes.

For example, it's easy to hear "direct experience" and readily assume we know what he means. But we may be conflating that concept with experience, mind or perception. Probably not you, Leo.

Didn't he dropped a ridiculous amount of acid once? He's done his fair share of psychedelics.

Edited May 16, 2022 by UnbornTao
clarity, flow and grammar

[billiesimon]

3 hours ago, Gesundheit2 said:

You said many times that psychedelics do not increase baseline levels of consciousness.

But they do, if you use them to do self inquiry and to deeply connect to what the Self is. I have gained important new levels of baseline consciousness with some specific trips, because I spent a lot of time contemplating and inquiring during the trip.

[Juan]

3 hours ago, Gesundheit2 said:

You said many times that psychedelics do not increase baseline levels of consciousness.

@Gesundheit2 I belive it does, someone can change drastically from being suicidal to not being suicidal, it changes overall the baseline of his consciousness, at least on my experience it seems it does, depending also of which one I work with. 

Edited May 15, 2022 by Juan

[Gesundheit2]

6 minutes ago, billiesimon said:

But they do, if you use them to do self inquiry and to deeply connect to what the Self is. I have gained important new levels of baseline consciousness with some specific trips, because I spent a lot of time contemplating and inquiring during the trip.

Why would you credit the increase to them, though? You could've achieved the same results or even better if you spent the same amount of time on the same practices sober. How would you know that they're the producer of the results?

Edited May 15, 2022 by Gesundheit2

[Gesundheit2]

9 minutes ago, Juan said:

@Gesundheit2 I belive it does, someone can change drastically from being suicidal to not being suicidal, it changes overall the baseline of his consciousness, at least on my experience it seems it does, depending also of which one I work with. 

Being suicidal or not seems more like a shift in perspective. Though, I've never been suicidal or used substances so I wouldn't really know. Anyway, this may be a valid use of psychedelics, or it may be a counter-indication that was lucky once.

Edited May 15, 2022 by Gesundheit2

[Bob Seeker]

Jed McKenna says the same thing.

i wouldn’t be surprised if Ralston is largely correct here.

I don’t think they awaken you or increase awareness. They can help you awaken by showing you how to deconstruct the mind, and it is your choice to do that or not.

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by Bob Seeker

[puporing]

It's not to say you can't have a breakthrough god realization type of awakening "sober", but that's probably such a minority of people doing years and years and hours and hours of meditation. Efficiency matters to some people. Nobody says you can't do it sober but it's just so much less efficient for most people.

[Bob Seeker]

3 minutes ago, puporing said:

It's not to say you can't have a breakthrough god realization type of awakening "sober", but that's probably such a minority of people doing years and years and hours and hours of meditation. Efficiency matters to some people. Nobody says you can't do it sober but it's just so much less efficient for most people.

Yeah but does this awakening stay with you? Or do you just have insights from the experience? 

I imagine a simply enlightened person like Exkhart Tolle can look at himself and know that he is God.

he may not know all aspects of God but what he is aware of is probably more pointed than what a psychedelic user would be aware of.

[puporing]

13 minutes ago, Bob Seeker said:

Yeah but does this awakening stay with you? Or do you just have insights from the experience? 

I imagine a simply enlightened person like Exkhart Tolle can look at himself and know that he is God.

he may not know all aspects of God but what he is aware of is probably more pointed than what a psychedelic user would be aware of.

It sure stays with me. Doesn't mean I have to now go and do "teaching" to prove it to somebody, that's entirely one's choice. Awakening with psychedelics is still a relatively new way of doing things, I imagine in the future we'll see more folks come out like Leo who advocate for it. Right now this is all still niche, doesn't mean it's not a valid way. 

Don't know about how deeply Eckhard Tolle has investigated into the nature of reality, I suspect not as deep as Leo has though based on his content. 

Edited May 16, 2022 by puporing

[UnbornTao]

From my limited experience with them, they can open the door, but you're the one who enters.

In other words, they may create the possibility of becoming conscious by opening your mind up, but the one who becomes conscious is you; it isn't done through an external factor.

I asked Martin Ball about this. He basically agreed that ultimately, it is up to you to become conscious, not to the drugs or any other process.

It's possible that Peter is coming from "the absolute" whereas Leo is coming from a relativistic stance, thinking that "things" external to You will accomplish the work.

Edited May 16, 2022 by UnbornTao
clarity

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Peter holds insight as fundamentally distinct from direct experience. He does say psychedelics can help produce insights, but not direct experience because it is you who becomes conscious, an intermediary can't do that. I think this is what he's saying.

Well, this is wrong too.

Psychedelics absolutely produce direct experience. It is absurd to claim otherwise. Insight comes from direct experience.

Psychedelics are an intermediary only in your imagination.

Quote

He does acknowledge the influence they can have one the mind.

No, this is wrong. It's not just an influence on the mind. It's awakening beyond anything meditation or self-inquiry or his workshops can offer.

Quote

I fear we're misunderstanding Peter because the way he holds certain distinctions is radically different from ours, sometimes.

No

Quote

It's easy to hear "direct experience" and assume we know what he means, but we may be conflating it with experience, mind or perception. Probably not you, Leo.

I know exactly what direct experience means.

Quote

Didn't he dropped a ridiculous amount of acid once? He's done his fair share of psychedelics.

So he says, but he is still wrong.

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

It's possible that other is coming from "the absolute" point of view (where he's coming from) whereas Leo is focused on the relative

I am talking about Absolute Consciousness. Not anything relative.

Psychedelics produce absolute consciousness. End of story. You cannot weasle your way out of this with clever words and definitions.

Peter is wrong, wrong, wrong about all this.

[ThePoint]

Does Ralston even have experience with psychedelics? Has he ever tried them?

If he hasn't, how could he talk about something that he hasn't even tried?

5 hours ago, Jodistrict said:

This is why I work with a shaman.  I have a living example in front of me of a highly advanced spiritual person, so I can see for my self that it works.  That beats a lot of empty words printed on the Internet.    

Where can you find shaman? 
 

[Jodistrict]

43 minutes ago, ThePoint said:

Does Ralston even have experience with psychedelics? Has he ever tried them?

If he hasn't, how could he talk about something that he hasn't even tried?

Where can you find shaman? 
 

I go to Mexico.   Plant medicines are part of the Mexican culture and it is possible to find qualified Shamen and facilitators.  Go to Facebook and put in keywords like "Mexico", "Ayahausca", etc.   It may be possible, in the US, but I don't know anything about the scene there.

Edited May 16, 2022 by Jodistrict

[Leo Gura]

54 minutes ago, ThePoint said:

Does Ralston even have experience with psychedelics? Has he ever tried them?

Yes he has.

But that doesn't make it any better. It actually makes his claims worse. If he had zero experience it would be more forgivable.

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

whereas Leo is focused on the relative.

That you think my teachings about awakening are focused on the relative is a profound misunderstanding of my teachings.

Not sure how you got this idea. All my awakenings and spiritual teachings are grounded in direct consciousness of the Absolute.

[Juan]

3 hours ago, Gesundheit2 said:

Being suicidal or not seems more like a shift in perspective. Though, I've never been suicidal or used substances so I wouldn't really know. Anyway, this may be a valid use of psychedelics, or it may be a counter-indication that was lucky once.

@Gesundheit2 In my experience yes it was a change of perspective but at the same time a change on my baseline of consciousness. Instead of having almost 24/7 suicidal thoughts, you just not having it anymore, so by definition your baseline consciousness had changed. The thoughts of “what if” might be never gone or at least I don’t think about it but, is not as compulsive as before. This is the difference from having a “glitching” computer/mind vs not that much anymore if not none.  

[aurum]

I am not the biggest psychedelic user. I’ve only done a handful of trips. But I am also of the opinion that Peter appears to be close-minded on this particular issue.

 

[JosephKnecht]

Psychedelics work. 

The only question is what is the right balance between increasing your 'baseline' consciousness, vs 'peak experiences'.

The bias of Peter is that he hasn't done too many psychedelics, while the bias of Leo is that he has done too many of them. 

Finding the right balance is your responsibility.