Are conservative Democrats the most useless Democrats ever?

[Hardkill]

Conservative Democrats such as Manchin and Sinema, don’t seem to care at all if any gets passed in Congress. They seem to care the least about their own constituents compared most other Democratic politicians who at least some varying degree of real care about their own constituents. 

I also recently read up some US history on conservative Dems going all the way back to the pre Civil War era and from what I’ve understand virtually every conservative Democrat in all of US history never gave a shit about their own constituents or making any significant progress ever in any way for the people or for the country. In fact, in most cases they would try to block any kind of legislation that would create any kind of necessary reform for anything pertaining to the government, the American economy, the legal and justice system, the natural environment of the US, racial issues, immigration and border security issues, the military, etc. 

So, if these conservative jerks have always totally okay with the status quo, what use have they ever been for the Democrats and liberals? What’s the point of the idea of needing more conservative Democratics to help increase the size of the congressional seats in each chambers of Congress or in both chambers in any state legislature assembly if none of them will ever be willing to work alongside all of the other Democratic Congressmen or state legislatures to enact any new kinds of essential reforms needed for our society?

 

Edited May 14, 2022 by Hardkill

[Leo Gura]

You don't seem to get that many democrat voters are fairly conservative.

Politics isn't designed for just your side.

[SeaMonster]

You also don't seem to get that your thinking about politics is reductive.  All you do is repeat the meaningless buzzwords "caring" and "progress/progressive" over and over again.  That's not an argument for any particular policy and how it affects someone's constituents.  It's sort of a "progressives good/conservatives bad" mantra.  You have to recognize that those particular senators know their state's needs as well as politics better than you do.  This also goes for the more socially liberal Republicans in Northeastern states, like Susan Collins in Maine.  It's equally crazy to think that she would vote the exact same way as a senator from Kentucky or Texas.

[Joel3102]

As much of a pain in the ass Manchin is, he’s still preferable to having a Republican from West Virginia, which would almost certainly be the case otherwise. So his voting base isn’t even natural Democrats, but Republicans.

Also note, Manchin’s popularity has increased more than any other Senator over the past year. Progressives need to understand that not all voters agree with them. 
 

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/3462266-poll-manchins-popularity-skyrocketed-over-past-year/amp/

[Hardkill]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You don't seem to get that many democrat voters are fairly conservative.

Politics isn't designed for just your side.

 

2 hours ago, SeaMonster said:

You also don't seem to get that your thinking about politics is reductive.  All you do is repeat the meaningless buzzwords "caring" and "progress/progressive" over and over again.  That's not an argument for any particular policy and how it affects someone's constituents.  It's sort of a "progressives good/conservatives bad" mantra.  You have to recognize that those particular senators know their state's needs as well as politics better than you do.  This also goes for the more socially liberal Republicans in Northeastern states, like Susan Collins in Maine.  It's equally crazy to think that she would vote the exact same way as a senator from Kentucky or Texas.

 

2 hours ago, Joel3102 said:

As much of a pain in the ass Manchin is, he’s still preferable to having a Republican from West Virginia, which would almost certainly be the case otherwise. So his voting base isn’t even natural Democrats, but Republicans.

Also note, Manchin’s popularity has increased more than any other Senator over the past year. Progressives need to understand that not all voters agree with them. 
 

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/3462266-poll-manchins-popularity-skyrocketed-over-past-year/amp/

No, I know that most Democrats in America, especially those in the South, are still culturally tradition oriented and that someone like Manchin’s constituency are actually mostly conservative Democrats.

But what I don’t get is don’t conservative leaning Democratic voters want some kind of change made for them? Like most other Americans they too, have complaining that politicians and the government have been letting them down constantly with all of their false promises of being able to help them improve their lives materially.

Even though Manchin comes from a deep red state, most voters of West Virginia still wanted the pretty much all of policies that were in the build back better bill. Yet, Manchin betrayed his own constituents by killing the bill because he’s a very conservative corporate Democrat. 

Furthermore, I still don’t see what  any conservative Democratic politician throughout US history has ever gotten done that has materially helped out their own constituents’ needs and demands.

Edited May 15, 2022 by Hardkill

[SeaMonster]

38 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

Even though Manchin comes from a deep red state, most voters of West Virginia still wanted the pretty much all of policies that were in the build back better bill. Yet, Manchin betrayed his own constituents by killing the bill because he’s a very conservative corporate Democrat. 

You have to give up on this idea that simple polling tells you anything.

Let me explain. Let's says Manchin votes for BBB (a huge spending bill) and it passes.  As a result, inflation spikes even more than it is now.  Manchin's constituents will get hammered by the high prices.  He will absolutely be blamed for it and get voted out.  Voters aren't thinking about the negative consequences of any particular piece of legislation, but when it comes back to bite them in the ass, they will most certainly blame not themselves, but their senator.

Edited May 15, 2022 by SeaMonster

[Hardkill]

1 minute ago, SeaMonster said:

You have to give up on this idea that simple polling tells you anything.

Let me explain. Let's says Machin votes for BBB (a huge spending bill) and it passes.  As a result, inflation spikes even more than it is now.  Manchin's constituents will get hammered by the high prices.  He will absolutely be blamed for it and get voted out.  Voters aren't thinking about the negative consequences of any particular piece of legislation, but when it comes back to bite them in the ass, they will most certainly blame not themselves, but their senator.

Top economists, including those who are noble prize winning economists, said that according to their calculations, build back better would not in any way significantly increase inflation in the issue. In fact, the economists argue that the provisions in the bill could very well decrease inflation.

[SeaMonster]

11 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

Top economists, including those who are noble prize winning economists, said that according to their calculations, build back better would not in any way significantly increase inflation in the issue. In fact, the economists argue that the provisions in the bill could very well decrease inflation.

Yeah, no-one serious thinks it will decrease inflation.  How much it will increase is the issue.  Also, inflation affects people who already have jobs (which is most of the voting public) so they aren't gaining much from the bill.  In any case, predictions about how any single piece of legislation will play out are speculative and contentious, and "Expert" predictions are often wrong.

E.g. see Obama's "I guess those shovel-ready jobs weren't so shovel-ready haha" from a decade ago.

Edited May 15, 2022 by SeaMonster

[Hardkill]

12 hours ago, SeaMonster said:

Yeah, no-one serious thinks it will decrease inflation.  How much it will increase is the issue.  Also, inflation affects people who already have jobs (which is most of the voting public) so they aren't gaining much from the bill.  In any case, predictions about how any single piece of legislation will play out are speculative and contentious, and "Expert" predictions are often wrong.

Are you a top economist, who have top academic credentials including a PhD from an elite level institution such as MIT or Harvard like well renown Paul Krugman or Larry Summers and many others like them, who strongly support Build Back Better?

How the hell would someone like you who probably isn’t anywhere nearly qualified to give their opinion on this economic matter know what they are talking about? 

Here’s what Krugman said in one of his NYT op-Ed’s on December 2021:

“....there’s a lot of talk about how Build Back Better might worsen inflation — talk that mainly seems to involve failure to do the math, for example, by confusing decades with single years and failing to divide by gross domestic product.

It’s true that the bill’s $1.75 trillion price tag is, on the surface, a lot of money. But that’s spending over 10 years, which means that annual outlays would be far smaller than the $1.9 trillion rescue planpassed this year or, for that matter, the $768 billion annual defense bill the House passed last week.

Also, much of the spending would be paid for with new taxes. Furthermore, you should never cite a big-sounding budget number without putting it in context. Remember, the U.S. economy is enormous. The budget office estimates that in its first year Build Back Better would expand the deficit by 0.6 percent of gross domestic product, a number that would shrink over time.

I’m not aware of any economic model suggesting that spending on that scale would make much of a difference to inflation. And because much of the spending would expand the economy’s productive capacity, it would probably reduce inflation over time.”

Larry Summers said in an article from the Insider website that Biden and the Democrats in Congress both should've passed both the BIF bill and the BBB social spending bill because "Together, they are smaller over 10 years than this past year's stimulus was over a single year, and in addition, they are substantially paid for."

Furthermore the BBB bill would raise taxes on the rich and Corporations which further would significantly reduce inflation.

Btw, why has Manchin been totally okay with spending over $700 billion a year on military budgets, which I am sure has contributed to inflation over the years.

Also, why are the other 48 Democratic senators not as concerned as Manchin and Sinema about being voted out of office if the bill possibly causes inflation?

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by Hardkill

[Leo Gura]

Don't forget to factor in that most voters are idiots. That explains 75% of politics.

[Roy]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Don't forget to factor in that most voters are idiots. That explains 75% of politics.

It's kind of amusing sometimes how the truth is so offensive but so simple.

[Husseinisdoingfine]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Don't forget to factor in that most voters are idiots. That explains 75% of politics.

So is the solution to abolish Democracy and adopt the Chinese system? Or maybe install a ‘meritocracy’.

[Gidiot]

The solution is to educate people so they don’t vote against they’re own interests, China only looks appealing in the short term

[Hardkill]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Don't forget to factor in that most voters are idiots. That explains 75% of politics.

 

2 hours ago, Roy said:

It's kind of amusing sometimes how the truth is so offensive but so simple.

Yes, most voter are idiots, but that's not what I am trying to get at.

The question I am asking is can we ever count on conservative Democrats to vote for any pieces of liberal or progressive legislation alongside the rest of the Democrats in Congress, most of whom are liberals to varying degrees? Or do conservative Democrats never vote for any pieces of legislation that is liberal or progressive?

Edited May 16, 2022 by Hardkill

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Hardkill said:

Or do conservative Democrats never vote for any pieces of legislation that liberal or progressive?

There is plenty of bipartisan stuff that gets passed in Congress. And some progressive stuff does get passed.

[Hardkill]

24 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

There is plenty of bipartisan stuff that gets passed in Congress. And some progressive stuff does get passed.

Sure, there a lot of bipartisan bills that do get passed, but since the late 90s to early 2000s, every new enacted by Congress that resulted in real major national policy change for the entire country to the level of Obamacare or the Trump Tax Cuts have never gotten passed through bipartisanship.

Which conservative Democrats in history for example have voted for any of the liberal or progressive legislations that got enacted?

 

Edited May 16, 2022 by Hardkill