Leo, thoughts on this image?

[SonataAllegro]

@Leo Gura, what are your thoughts on these upper levels to Spiral Dynamics? 

I KNOW the model is useless in higher states of consciousness. I've been there, it looks like a complete joke, because I made it up as God. But if you HAD to assess the accuracy of this model, what would you say he gets right/wrong?

Personally, I don't see why you separate mysticism/non-duality and SD. If the ultimate truth of every human is that they are God, shouldn't a model of human development account for that? This image is the most concise I've seen.

[Leo Gura]

That is Ken Wilber's model. It's pretty good.

[Carl-Richard]

5 hours ago, SonataAllegro said:

Personally, I don't see why you separate mysticism/non-duality and SD.

The issue is that people think Turquoise specifically is only about mysticism, which is not true. But this doesn't mean that Ken Wilber can't create a Tier 3 where mysticism is more central.

[thisintegrated]

It's interesting, but I do wonder how Ken determined that after Turquoise you develop psychic abilities.  It's not that uncommon for even Purples and Blues to have such abilities, so I don't see how they say something about one's stage.

And "synchronicities"??  Literally everyone has this.  Perhaps it only becomes "apparent" at Green.  It's one of Green's favorite topics.

 

Though I do feel there could be a "Teal" stage between Yellow and Turquoise in SD.  A stage for "Yellow+", or what Carl believes Turquoise to be.

 

Edit: Can't wait for Leo to make a video on stage Teal?, the original creators of SD would lose their shit??

Edited May 13, 2022 by thisintegrated

[Carl-Richard]

22 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Though I do feel there could be a "Teal" stage between Yellow and Turquoise in SD.  A stage for "Yellow+", or what Carl believes Turquoise to be.

I just liked Nahm's description of it, because it explains the collectivism aspect, but the "content" (the integrative value structure) is not categorically different from Yellow, which also kinda makes sense (because what more is there to integrate?). Before that though, I agreed with the people over at Nordic metamodernism who believe that Turquoise is an ill-defined and unnecessary stage (in that it's not different from Yellow).

[thisintegrated]

15 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

I just liked Nahm's description of it, because it explains the collectivism aspect, but the "content" (the integrative value structure) is not categorically different from Yellow, which also kinda makes sense (because what more is there to integrate?). Before that though, I agreed with the people over at Nordic metamodernism who believe that Turquoise is an ill-defined and unnecessary stage (in that it's not different from Yellow).

You can only see so far above your current stage

Blues wouldn't even recognize the existence of Yellow.

 

15 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

what more is there to integrate?

this

Edited May 14, 2022 by thisintegrated

[AtheisticNonduality]

@thisintegrated The psychic stage and the "telepathic" abilities just refer to perceiving all of Nature as manifestations of a single soul, so everything is connected and you have access to it all. Your psyche can commune with everything else in that way.

[thisintegrated]

2 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

@thisintegrated The psychic stage and the "telepathic" abilities just refer to perceiving all of Nature as manifestations of a single soul, so everything is connected and you have access to it all. Your psyche can commune with everything else in that way.

Everything described above Turquoise in that image is just part of Turquoise in SD.  Turquoise already perceives all of nature as itself.

Edited May 14, 2022 by thisintegrated

[AtheisticNonduality]

@thisintegrated Yeah, except he actually models in SES how things emerge in that specific order.

[thisintegrated]

5 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

@thisintegrated Yeah, except he actually models in SES how things emerge in that specific order.

omg.. I'm Tier 3!! I had no idea!

Wooo!!!???

Edited May 14, 2022 by thisintegrated

[Einsteinonacid]

Damn I got a long way to go. I'm still stuck in red

[AtheisticNonduality]

57 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

omg.. I'm Tier 3!! I had no idea!

Wooo!!!???

Where are you on the map?

[thisintegrated]

1 minute ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

Where are you on the map?

I don't know, it's all very vague, but maybe Indigo.

[AtheisticNonduality]

16 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

I don't know, it's all very vague, but maybe Indigo.

Indigo/psychic - nature mysticism, one has seen the Witness that is behind everything in one's mind and that this Witness is the same across all of Nature and all other beings. One then "converses" with other systems through identifying with the same thing shared by all: the Over-Soul. There is a post-mental "knowledge" of Nothingness that permeates everything and is the Witness; the subject-object duality may collapse.

Violet/subtle - deity mysticism, one's consciousness begins radically changing, you get pulled into a vortex so to speak, you have intense visions of lights or vivid beings like angels or others, you have a sense of God that may have a personalized form as if you are communicating with some higher intelligence but only by communicating with oneself.

Ultraviolet/causal - formless mysticism, total God-realization, absolute comprehension of infinity and Nothingness, ego death, ascent into a higher realm.

Clear light/nondual - This higher realm is recognized as identical with the world because there is no difference between anything.

Edited May 14, 2022 by AtheisticNonduality

[Carl-Richard]

9 hours ago, thisintegrated said:

Everything described above Turquoise in that image is just part of Turquoise in SD. 

That makes zero sense. Turquoise in this model is Turquoise in SD.

[SonataAllegro]

4 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

That makes zero sense. Turquoise in this model is Turquoise in SD.

I’m realizing the differences between yellow and turquoise these days.

Turquoise really is a more social stage in which one can be a leader of people who are in many different and often conflicting states of consciousness.

Yellow is too distracted by ideas and models to pay enough attention to the ego dynamics of a group. 

[Carl-Richard]

9 minutes ago, SonataAllegro said:

Turquoise really is a more social stage in which one can be a leader of people who are in many different and often conflicting states of consciousness. 

That could be one aspect of manifesting the lessons of a mature systems view in the collective domain, yes.

[thisintegrated]

8 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

That makes zero sense. Turquoise in this model is Turquoise in SD.

So you think Ken literally figured out 4 whole new stages above Turquoise?

Guess I really am Tier 3?

Edited May 14, 2022 by thisintegrated

[Carl-Richard]

6 hours ago, thisintegrated said:

So you think Ken literally figured out 4 whole new stages above Turquoise?

Guess I really am Tier 3?

When I say he has figured out 4 new stages, I mean that he has literally made a model with 4 new stages, so yes, by definition, that is what he has done. Likewise, when I say what I think Turquoise is, I'm just trying to present what the model is literally saying to the best of my ability. 

On the other hand, when you say "figured out", it sounds like you mean he just discovered the ultimate reality, and that you're projecting your idea of the ultimate reality onto whatever is the highest stage, which used to be Turquoise. If so, then that clears up so many things.

If you don't think it's actually the ultimate reality, then it's just my old point: you're mixing your own maps with other people's maps (i.e. you're not talking about SD, but something else).