How to know you are not deluding yourself?

[SeaMonster]

19 hours ago, Someone here said:

Let's sat you awakened to infinity or infinite love or spiritual solipsism....how to make sure you are right? How to know you are not deluded? Basically I'm asking what anchors all human knowledge and insights? How do we know anything at all is a tangent question. 

Some might say "direct experience "..but what if direct experience is fooling us ? After all direct experience does indeed fool us every night when we are sleeping (dreams)....so who's to say that your insight from direct experience is not a deception? 

I don't think you get the fundamental nature of spiritual awakening.

Spiritual awakening is not awakening to a conceptual understanding.  It is a state of being that you can imperfectly describe, but you DON'T HAVE TO.  It's how you exist in that state that matters.

Talking about infinite love ISN'T GOING TO MAKE ANYONE INFINITELY LOVING.   

Let's get fucking real on this forum for once.  All it does is give you the opportunity to break down limiting and harmful ego defense mechanisms.  The nature of reality is fucking irrelevant unless you awaken and then seize the opportunity to become "whole."

HOW DO I MAKE SURE I'M RIGHT is just ego talk.  Only the ego cares if it's "right."  

[vladorion]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Your words here are the BS.

Yes. And so are yours.

[Gesundheit2]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Your words here are the BS.

BS is also God.

[Leo Gura]

14 hours ago, Tristan12 said:

So are you saying that once you awaken deep enough, there will be absolutely no doubt or uncertainty,

Yes

Quote

and so you can be sure that reality isn't what you normally see it to be in a regular state of consciousness? 

Reality is absolutely what you see.

All of experience is Absolute Truth.

Regular state of consciousness is Absolute Truth. You just aren't recognizing it as such. All states of consciousness are Absolute Truth, but not all states recognize themselves as such.

[Ulax]

The way i see it, all language is delusion. So any attachment to belief, which comprises language, is deluded.

So, its pretty hard not to be deluded lol.

[UnbornTao]

Speculation:

There's no way you can be wrong when it comes to direct experience. 

By direct experience, direct consciousness is meant, not the conventional use of perceptive faculties. It is not an activity of the mind. It is direct. It is self-validating. There's no room for doubt because you are there, so to speak.

Granted, after the enlightenment, the mind can make up stuff about it and still be confused. Depends on the depth of the consciousness.

[RMQualtrough]

55 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

Speculation:

There's no way you can be wrong when it comes to direct experience. 

By direct experience, direct consciousness is meant, not the conventional use of perceptive faculties. It is not an activity of the mind. It is direct. It is self-validating. There's no room for doubt because you are there, so to speak.

Granted, after the enlightenment, the mind can make up stuff about it and still be confused. Depends on the depth of the consciousness.

What about the little added bits though? You blow up... Then return and make sense of what the actual fuck just happened. And then there's room for little additions...

[softlyblossoming]

On 13/05/2022 at 5:28 AM, Salvijus said:

I think delusion has to do with the ego. Ego interprets reality for it's own survival all the time. All interpretations of reality are distortions of reality. Only a place where there is no judgement, no interpretation, just pure seeing without any interpretation is the true clean perception of reality. It's called samadhi. 

So unless you're in samadhi, your perception is in some way distorted by the ego. If u experience suffering, you are deluded also because only delusions can cause suffering. So the simplest way to tell if you're deluded is. Are u beyond suffering? If no, then you're still in delusion.

On 13/05/2022 at 6:54 AM, Salvijus said:

Only if one achieves a state of zero bias can he observe reality as it is and not as he would like it to be. All bias is essentially a distortion of reality to suit your personal agenda and therefore a fake version of reality, aka delusion. To reach zero bias state either ego has to be trancendended or dissolved. Maybe there are some other ways also idk. 

Hi, I love what you're saying here. This resonates . Is the way to get enlightened by entering into the state of samadhi and just staying there through thick and thin, letting it sort-of deepen, until enlightenment occurs? Would you mind describing how it feels to transcend vs dissolve the ego? Thank you .

[Tristan12]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Reality is absolutely what you see.

All of experience is Absolute Truth.

Regular state of consciousness is Absolute Truth. You just aren't recognizing it as such. All states of consciousness are Absolute Truth, but not all states recognize themselves as such.

I still have a hard time understanding that if I normally perceive my reality as being real and physical, and it doesn't feel like a dream, but then I become conscious that reality is a dream, how do I know which is more accurate? All states of consciousness are Absolute Truth, but you still describe reality as being a dream and as not being physical, so if I can be in states of consciousness that perceive both, how do I know which is more accurate?

[Leo Gura]

47 minutes ago, Tristan12 said:

I still have a hard time understanding that if I normally perceive my reality as being real and physical, and it doesn't feel like a dream, but then I become conscious that reality is a dream, how do I know which is more accurate?

You will immediately know that awakening is more accurate. It's just like waking up from sleep.

Quote

All states of consciousness are Absolute Truth, but you still describe reality as being a dream and as not being physical, so if I can be in states of consciousness that perceive both, how do I know which is more accurate?

The inaccurate part is mistaking consciousness for something physical.

You are simply not recognizing that your toilet is made out of absolute consciousness. Toilets are made out the same thing as your mind.

[Tristan12]

25 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

1 hour ago, Tristan12 said:

I still have a hard time understanding that if I normally perceive my reality as being real and physical, and it doesn't feel like a dream, but then I become conscious that reality is a dream, how do I know which is more accurate?

You will immediately know that awakening is more accurate. It's just like waking up from sleep.

I remember the times that I've awoken to reality being a dream, it has felt so convincing and like how could I ever doubt this, of course its a dream, but then I wonder, how do I know that my perceptions are accurate and truthful, what if I am deluded or just imagining something?

Even though the awakenings I've had feel completely true and undeniable, like waking up from sleeping like you said, I still have this lingering thought in the back of my mind of how do I know my perceptions are accurate.

[Salvijus]

2 hours ago, softlyblossoming said:

Would you mind describing how it feels to transcend vs dissolve the ego?

If u create a distance between what is you and what is your mind, that's called trancending the mind or maybe distancing yourself from the influence of the mind. This gives a clean perception even tho the mind is still full of defilements. 

Dissolving the ego is pretty much self explanatory. Means purification of the mind, eradication of the defilements, cravings, attachments, unresolved emotional traumas, things like that. As far as i know, this creates a clean mirror where reality can be reflected as it is without any ego distortions on top of it. No ego = no distortions = the truth.

A path of distancing your awareness from the mind and the path of purification a somewhat similar. If one rises his awareness, naturally some purification will happen of the ego. And if one purifies the mind, the awareness will rise also. They're kinda the same but also different.

I don't know much about buddhism but i think this is what is being called as samatha vs vipassana meditation among buddhists. Idk, could be wrong. 

[Loba]

I look at things that remind me of that moment of truth, and then let go and it usually comes back.

It's usually some form of death, though.  I think the finitude of it makes for some truthful experiences...

[softlyblossoming]

@Salvijus Brilliant answer, you explained that perfectly to me, thank you so very much! I thought it might have to do with the 'that's not me' and the 'it's all me' sides of the coin! 

[Salvijus]

@softlyblossoming ?

[Salvijus]

@softlyblossoming

Here's a good explanation of 'im nothing vs im everything' imo.

 

[RMQualtrough]

Delusions and thoughts are part of the mirage anyway, so maybe none of this matters. E.g. if you got a screen wirh the words "this is a screen" written on it, if you look at the words you miss they're just appearing on screen and so miss the screen... Same if the displayed text was a lie, you'd still be looking at the words.

Knowledge is tangible, has to be on and in that screen. It's just literally being pure and simple which is not a perceptible object but the thing you are. Hm.

[The0Self]

On 5/13/2022 at 5:24 PM, Tristan12 said:

So are you saying that once you awaken deep enough, there will be absolutely no doubt or uncertainty, and so you can be sure that reality isn't what you normally see it to be in a regular state of consciousness? 

Yeah it’s the type of thing where, when it happens, you might have absolutely no thought of telling anyone about it or even discussing it on here — because it’s just so obvious and absolutely the case, that you might not even be bothered to describe it...

(and just so you understand the profundity of that: you could be a monk and this could happen and you might not even tell your teacher...because it’d be as if you no longer care whether he’s awake because all you know is that you are awake, except it’s a knowing even beyond that since there’s no one separate from everything to be awake, and no one else.)...

Because if people actually want it, they have everything they need to wake up, and you’re not going to wake anyone up, because no one is asleep. When you wake up, so does the entire world, so to speak — everything is helplessly perfect. With no self anywhere.

Mind reflects truth as separation, solidity, and doership. When all mind-based activity ceases (once you sort of short-circuit thought/perception with self inquiry to make it see itself as completely futile) it becomes clear these reflections are inaccurate. Even with nondual recognition (not enlightenment) it will be seen in an absolute direct flash of reality/naturalness, that it’s actually impossible for anything to act on anything else, because that’s simply not the way reality actually is. And it’s in plain view; there’s no separation. Though one could say the illusion always has a leg up as long as ANY thoughts have the possibility of being believed or identified-with on ANY level, since delusion happens prior to objects / ideas / perception / view.

The thought space pulls one into illusory view and doership constantly. The only way to short circuit it is a maximal (as in no alternative; very last avenue) desire to wake up to absolute unfiltered truth, and inquiring into the one who is trying to wake up, noticing that it’s an energy that simply seeks and it can’t do otherwise, but every claim it has about reality on the absolute/direct/subtle level is false. So whatever seems to actually happen to you, even noticing colors on a screen — that’s a thought. There’s no noticing (awareness OF) the screen, there’s just seeing a screen, hearing, this, all there is. This singular timeless frame of absolute reality. There’s no “behind the scenes” code. This is not complicated at all either, it’s the simplest possible thing — too simple to see though. And even though it’s not complicated, it is limitless and indescribably intimate.

All untruth is based in thought / subject-object perception. So you won’t find truth in thought — this is very liberating to realize, because then we can instead just attend to what isn’t a thought... What is that? Whatever can’t be thought. Or described.

Again for waking up, it’s less about energetic work than it’s about inquiry and directly attending to thought and self (not just raw objective sensations) in a discerning way, for the purpose of investigating which (and how) thoughts/fixations pull us back into illusory view, thought, and doership. And tackling the problem at its actual root, going into it knowing full well what your main obstacle will be: that the seeking setup will at all times try to co opt the bid for freedom, for its own purposes... you starve that at its root.

It exposes the characteristics of the illusion — solidity, separation, doership — as being unreal. Sort of corresponds with anicca, dukkha, and anatta.

Edited May 15, 2022 by The0Self

[Tristan12]

@The0Self Interesting

[The0Self]

6 hours ago, Tristan12 said:

@The0Self Interesting

tl/dr: when the self / separation filter is gone, it's the most obvious thing in the world -- it's not mistakable and it's not subtle.

Edited May 15, 2022 by The0Self