How to know you are not deluding yourself?

[Vynce]

14 minutes ago, ZenAlex said:

Just because you have no doubts doesn't mean you're not delusional.

I understand the perspective from which you are argumenting. Even after some awakenings, I still held this frame. Consciousness is infintely tricky.

But notice that all argumenting and interpreting won't bring you closer to truth. If you consider the materialistic paradigm, you have contradictions. If you considering another paradigm, you have contradictions. No mental theory about reality, without contradictions.

So your best bet is, to dumb all paradigms, dumb Leo, Actualized.org and your entire knowing, and stay completely open absolute truth. That is your consciousness. This is literally the only fucking thing, that can absolutely be true for you. Thats a good start. 

[Someone here]

@Leo Gura

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Awakening is absolute.

If it's not absolute, it isn't awakening.

And if you doubt the absolute, you will never awaken.

The doubt is actually blocking the realization that you are absolute. As soon as you doubt that you are absolute, you cease being absolute and fall into dreaming.

Your worry should not be that the absolute is a delusion, your worry should be that doubting the absolute is delusion.

I once asked this question in meditation and the answer I got was that the only difference between delusion and reality is follow-through. Einstein’s theory of relativity was delusional at some point but then he worked it out and it was correct. Newton had many theories that were delusional but his laws of motion were worked out with careful experimentation and observation and they became truth.

The problem arises when you do not know which ideas may be genius and which may be delusional. The only real answer is to test those ideas against reality. 

If you have a belief about reality that you cannot test, most likely it is a bit delusional. If you have an idea that you think might be genius that nobody else can follow, there is a small chance it might be a good idea but most likely it is delusional. Think of ideas like sketches; some of them turn out good the first time, most of them you crumple up and start over. Once you get someone else to see the art in the sketch the idea slips one step closer from delusion to reality.

[Someone here]

 usually. The only reason I'm able to acknowledge my delusions is because of medication. Without medication, I would have a complete lack of insight. So I guess I can't really call them delusions, as they aren't a fixed belief, but rather they are unusual 50% beliefs.

For example, I used to have a delusion about a government agency following me. That hasn't completely gone away, but I would say it has lessened about 60-70%. So while I still have paranoia about it, it isn't a solid, concrete belief.

[zurew]

59 minutes ago, Someone here said:

If you have a belief about reality that you cannot test, most likely it is a bit delusional.

There are a number of ideas and beliefs that you cannot test, and we take it for granted. This idea, that if you can't test something, then it must be delusional can be questioned itself.

Just because there is something we cannot test in a normal conventional way, that does not mean that it isn't true, or less true. 

Also, we always test ideas and beliefs in an already created subjective structure or system. That means, that there are always some number of underlying assumptions and axioms that are not being questioned and taken for granted. So even if you can test some ideas and it became true (in your subjectively created structure/system) that does not mean either that it is objectively / absolutely true.

Given enough well defined axioms or premises, i could create an infinite number of self validating structures or systems, where if i put something into that structure i can subjectively evaluate if that thing is true or not (based on my unjustified axioms and premises). ---> the lesson here is that you won't find any system or philosophy that will be able to justify itself objectively without having any assumptions at all. So trying to use logic to get closer to truth won't help.

So you either have a self justifying system, or you have an infinite structure where the justifications need justifications to infinity.

So using doubting as a tool and using logic as a tool to get to a destination can only help to a degree, but can't get you all the way there, because they are too limited on a structural level.

Absolute means, that it is full, there is nothing outside of it, so you cannot test it against something else. Whatever you would want to compare to it, you wouldn't be able to ,because that 'something' would be already part of the absolute.

Testing something absolute is like trying to fit an infinite thing through a finite structure/model/system.

Edited May 13, 2022 by zurew

[The0Self]

8 hours ago, Tristan12 said:

@The0Self How do you know that when you have an awakening, what you realize is more true than what you perceive in your regular sober state of consciousness? I was thinking and I guess if I perceived my reality to be real and physical, that would be a thought, and even though things seem real, there is nothing in my direct experience that actually proves that reality is physically real and not a dream, and so without any thoughts, in a regular sober state, reality just feels like a question mark, like I don't really know what I'm looking at. Because of that there's no contradiction if I suddenly become conscious that reality is a dream.

I still feel sort of uncertain about this, in the sense that what if I am deluded, or if i only see reality as a question mark because my consciousness is already raised and maybe a materialist wouldn't, but I guess if I remember that direct experience is absolute, and it's just thoughts that delude me, then whatever I perceive in my direct experience is what's true, and if I don't know what it is while in a sober state, then that's just what it is right now.

Do you have anything to add?

It's not like a peak experience. That would be like a kid discovering masturbation and then thinking "holy crap, nobody else knows about this, and if they do, they're probably few and far between and we know something almost no one knows!" No...

This is literally 100% doubtless. What you're describing is still in the realm of doubt and certainty. This is beyond doubt and certainty. Certainty is a mere concept you're imagining.

Edited May 13, 2022 by The0Self

[Someone here]

@zurew I see what you are saying about unquestionable assumptions (axioms). But that's like the foundation of all knowledge ,science, philosophy etc.

We can't do away with axioms because then it becomes impossible to build any  valid theory from scratch.

Its very difficult to see your own delusions but very easy to see delusions in others. You have to adopt an attitude of wanting the truth and not giving a shit if it corresponds to the ideas you already have.

I followed the following rules:

Let the chips fall where they may. Be skeptical of everything you hear. Consider it to be quite possibly wrong unless it's proven right. People lie and exaggerate all day every day. Groups of people do also. If anyone tells you about something that's supernatural, they are most likely completely full of shit or totally misreading evidence. Have honest talks with smart people and ask their opinion on some ideas your curious about. Don't trust anyone's thoughts completely no matter how many times in the past they've been right. 

[ZenAlex]

35 minutes ago, Someone here said:

 usually. The only reason I'm able to acknowledge my delusions is because of medication. Without medication, I would have a complete lack of insight. So I guess I can't really call them delusions, as they aren't a fixed belief, but rather they are unusual 50% beliefs.

For example, I used to have a delusion about a government agency following me. That hasn't completely gone away, but I would say it has lessened about 60-70%. So while I still have paranoia about it, it isn't a solid, concrete belief.

Are you a diagnosed schizophrenic?

[Someone here]

3 minutes ago, ZenAlex said:

Are you a diagnosed schizophrenic?

No .

I have depression. Anxiety panic attacks. And a mild delusional thoughts .

I take enough medication for those. So don't worry ? 

[The0Self]

59 minutes ago, Someone here said:

 usually. The only reason I'm able to acknowledge my delusions is because of medication. Without medication, I would have a complete lack of insight. So I guess I can't really call them delusions, as they aren't a fixed belief, but rather they are unusual 50% beliefs.

For example, I used to have a delusion about a government agency following me. That hasn't completely gone away, but I would say it has lessened about 60-70%. So while I still have paranoia about it, it isn't a solid, concrete belief.

 

18 minutes ago, Someone here said:

No .

I have depression. Anxiety panic attacks. And a mild delusional thoughts .

I take enough medication for those. So don't worry ? 

 

Have you by chance ever used meth? I ask because I once had a massive psychotic break on it -- thought I was starring on an alien TV show and the producers were framing me for murder for good TV, and later I was convinced that I was the world's first AGI and the hospital and the psychosis were just a ruse to get me to come in for updates... But the reason I'm telling you this is because I didn't fully recover until after having gone 5-6 months with no meth. For months I couldn't shake the suspicion that a government agency was following me and doing experiments and surveillance etc... And I was hallucinating evidence for this too -- but I had a hunch they were hallucinations (considering the alien thing was later seen as obviously a hallucination, I figured the at-the-time-current surveillance/etc hallucinations probably were too), so I was able to stay somewhat tethered to reality. But it wasn't until I totally healed that I could see through it 100% as nonsense (and the hallucinations disappeared completely). So if you've ever used meth, fwiw it took me 6 months before I healed from its mind scrambling lingering psychosis, so you could maybe reassess whether you need medication at the 6 month mark since last use (again IF you've ever used it; I wouldn't be surprised if you never have). Or if you (or whoever sees this) haven't ever used it, hopefully this still helped somehow -- if nothing else, maybe it shows someone that delusional thoughts can go away completely.

Edited May 13, 2022 by The0Self

[RMQualtrough]

There is a different type of knowledge from usual knowledge. You can ask anyone this and they will agree, that you can't be "deluding yourself" that you exist, for example... So there are certain types of knowing like that. Then after that, a lot of assumptions are made about some deeper elements. There's differences among various traditions because they theorize about things in different ways.

I am sure the experience itself that is had is practically always the same. Which is like the total loss of border and solidity of things, and lost sense of any continuous self entity. Too difficult to remember enough about it... But you do lose all or most sense of your body and without that sense your perception of where awareness "is" just leaks out and isn't in any place at all. As opposed to feeling like it is in your skull or behind your eyes where we usually feel it to exist.

[Loba]

It just feels "right".   But usually, I don't know for sure, I try to figure it out, and it leaves more questions than answers.

 

This is good for meditation, spacious desert-like sounds..

Edited May 13, 2022 by Loba

[Inliytened1]

As some of the others mentioned - when you awaken there is a shift to a higher state of consciousness- this is a state of Infinite Consciousness or Divine Consciousness.  It is synonymous with Absolute Consciousness because it is Absolute or non-dual.  So there is no room for doubt - all doubt is dualistic because it requires separation from Absolute Truth in order for there to be an entity separate from the Absolute that can doubt.  But in such a state of consciousness there is no separation.  It is Absolute.

[Someone here]

@The0Self never done meth before.  But I used to smoke weed during my teenage years .

I didn't think I was addicted to weed, but I noticed that many times when I smoked, it was more out of habit than as a conscious choice. I was also suspicious it was the reason I constantly felt hazy, tired, and forgetful.

The worst part was that I felt bored a lot. I was like a kid on summer break, all alone because everyone else was at camp or on a family vacation. When I did find activities to occupy my time, they were often work-related and not the chill relaxation that weed brought me.

The best part was that I had so much energy. It took a week or so, but there was a noticeable uptick in the way I felt during the day. It wasn't hard to get out of bed in the morning, even in the winter. I was more productive during the day, both in chores and work. I still procrastinated sometimes but found it easier to break out of that cycle.

I don't think it has anything to do with my delusional thoughts . My delusional thoughts were triggered by getting addicted to Leo's content. Lol funny enough.  Leo's content is dangerous for mentally unstable people. That's why I stopped watching Leo's videos.im taking a break from the mind shattering content of Leo ?

[WelcometoReality]

16 hours ago, Someone here said:

Some might say "direct experience "..but what if direct experience is fooling us ? After all direct experience does indeed fool us every night when we are sleeping (dreams)....so who's to say that your insight from direct experience is not a deception? 

The deeper down the rabbit hole you go you'll know that it's deeper then you were before because you see. But it's only after you've gone deeper that this becomes clear.

Edited May 13, 2022 by WelcometoReality

[The0Self]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

My delusional thoughts were triggered by getting addicted to Leo's content. Lol funny enough.  Leo's content is dangerous for mentally unstable people. That's why I stopped watching Leo's videos.im taking a break from the mind shattering content of Leo ?

Yeah that just comes with the territory. I think it could be possible to get around this, but I don't think anyone has found the way -- at least not to a clear enough extent to start putting it in practice to the point where it's commonplace.

[Arcangelo]

How to know you are not deluding yourself?

 

[vladorion]

If you think you know or understand something, that's not awakening.

The moment you open your mouth, you're talking bs.

"I am God" is as much bs as anything else. Just a more grandiose type of bs.

[Leo Gura]

26 minutes ago, vladorion said:

"I am God" is as much bs as anything else. Just a more grandiose type of bs.

Your words here are the BS.

[Tristan12]

14 hours ago, Tristan12 said:

@The0Self How do you know that when you have an awakening, what you realize is more true than what you perceive in your regular sober state of consciousness? I was thinking and I guess if I perceived my reality to be real and physical, that would be a thought, and even though things seem real, there is nothing in my direct experience that actually proves that reality is physically real and not a dream, and so without any thoughts, in a regular sober state, reality just feels like a question mark, like I don't really know what I'm looking at. Because of that there's no contradiction if I suddenly become conscious that reality is a dream.

I still feel sort of uncertain about this, in the sense that what if I am deluded, or if i only see reality as a question mark because my consciousness is already raised and maybe a materialist wouldn't, but I guess if I remember that direct experience is absolute, and it's just thoughts that delude me, then whatever I perceive in my direct experience is what's true, and if I don't know what it is while in a sober state, then that's just what it is right now.

Do you have anything to add?

 

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That's not awakening. That's speculation and thought.

Awakening requires a 100% absolute consciousness that your consciousness is all there could ever be.

You don't understand yet that nothing can exist outside of you. Once you get it, it's so fucking obvious. More obvious than 1 = 1.

 

5 hours ago, The0Self said:

It's not like a peak experience. That would be like a kid discovering masturbation and then thinking "holy crap, nobody else knows about this, and if they do, they're probably few and far between and we know something almost no one knows!" No...

This is literally 100% doubtless. What you're describing is still in the realm of doubt and certainty. This is beyond doubt and certainty. Certainty is a mere concept you're imagining.

So are you saying that once you awaken deep enough, there will be absolutely no doubt or uncertainty, and so you can be sure that reality isn't what you normally see it to be in a regular state of consciousness? 

[Arcangelo]

3 minutes ago, Tristan12 said:

So are you saying that once you awaken deep enough, there will be absolutely no doubt or uncertainty

YES.