On marriage and having children

[Someone here]

Do you plan on getting married one day and have children?

For me personally  .I want to get married but I have ethical reasons against having  children. I'm okay with adopting a child. But I don't wanna give birth to a child . Now that's just my mind at 25 yo .maybe when I grow up I will change my mind due to life experience. 

What's your thoughts on marriage, having kids and abortion? 

Edited May 6, 2022 by Someone here

[something_else]

Fuck no to marriage, but I want kids

When it comes to kids, I think I'd wait until I was 30+ though. You don't want to have kids if you haven't lived your own life properly yet. How are you supposed to teach a kid to live a good life if you haven't lived one yourself?

IMO having kids before you're 25 should be a crime  Kidding, but I do think it's almost universally a bad idea in modern Western culture

[Someone here]

2 minutes ago, something_else said:

How are you supposed to teach a kid to live a good life if you haven't lived one yourself?

Good point. I see .yeah that's one of the reasons I don't want kids at this age .

Edited May 6, 2022 by Someone here

[SeaMonster]

What are your "ethical reasons" for not having a child?

[Someone here]

13 hours ago, SeaMonster said:

What are your "ethical reasons" for not having a child?

Well ..primarily that life is full of suffering and we don't ask the child for his /her  permission if they want to live this life that can be awful sometimes. 

[Someone here]

5 hours ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

I'd like to have kids eventually, but no marriage

Why no marriage? 

Also how are you gonna have kids without marriage?  You don't want the kids to have unstable family. 

[Someone here]

7 minutes ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

I just don't like social contracts with an illusion of safety and comfort. "Be a good little loyal human, and you'll live happy and comfortably" type of thing. Regardless whether it's 9-5 job, marriage, formal education system after high school, etc.

Marriage doesn't guarantee stability and happiness/fullfillment of the relationship at all. Marriage is not some type of effective glue that makes couples stick together. There are plenty of divorces regardless of the couples being married - in fact, the percentage is as high as 50, if I'm not mistaken.

I want an organic family with a woman I am actually compatible with - with an option of leaving always open. I want relationship that naturally stable - not reinforced by some bullshit illusionary contract. If there will be serious problems in our relationship, we will handle splitting the kids/property like adults - instead of dragging our asses throught courts. Children would be better off too, with much less stress.

However, I'm not even thinking about having children in my 20s, or even in my early 30s - probably earliest date would be mid-late 30s. I want to accummulate enough life experience, achievments (that are quite ambitious), and have some fun in my life first.

  Interesting. 

Let us first understand why marriage exists. As a human being, either as a man or a woman, you have certain needs. When you were eight years old, if I had asked you about marriage, the question would not have meant anything to you. If I had asked you when you were fourteen, you might have been a little shy because you were considering. Because your body started growing in a certain way and hormones started infecting your intelligence, you were thinking about it. If I had asked you at eighteen, there would have been a clear "yes" or "no, not now" or "not at all", depending on what happened to you between the ages of fourteen to eighteen.

The word “marriage” might have acquired a very negative aura around it in certain parts of the world now, because there is a sense of juvenile freedom. Young people in some societies perceive marriage as a bad thing. When you are young, you are against it, because your physical body is in a certain mode. Marriage looks like a bondage and a chain. You want to do things in a certain way. But slowly, when the body weakens, once again you wish there was someone with you in a committed way.

[Someone here]

7 minutes ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

You can still do that, without being married. You can stay in the same relationship for decades, or for the rest of your life, without being married.

Is the illusion of formally agreeing to "stay together forever" that strong/important to you? Why can't I have just a strong relationship, without getting the state involved into it?

As a human being you have physical needs, emotional needs, psychological needs, social and economic needs. People may not want to consciously think about these things because they think their marriage will become ugly if they do. But these needs and considerations do exist.

For women today, the world has changed to some extent. She need not necessarily get married for social and economic reasons. She has a choice. She can take care of her own economics and social situations. It was not so a hundred years ago. There is a little bit of freedom now. At least two of the reasons why you need to get married are out. You have to consider the other three.

Psychologically, do you need a companion in your life? Do you need emotional companionship? And how strong are your physical needs? You must look at this as an individual. This is not a social prescription – everyone gets married or no one gets married. It is not going to work that way. As an individual, how strong are your needs? Is this some kind of a passing need that you can easily go beyond? If it is, do not get married because it is not worth getting tied up. If you do, it is not just two people but a family that has to face the consequences. I am not saying marriage is wrong. Do you want it, that is the question. Each individual should consider this for himself or herself, not by the social norm

[somegirl]

@Someone here Would like to have a child before I am 30.

I am still not 100% sure about child thing, but if/when I will be ready, that would be my ideal.

I think why I was hesitant to have a child is because I saw so many bad examples of how parents messed up their children.

I think it should be forbidden by law to have a child unless you are mentally and emotionally stable, I really believe that.

Also I don't like how irresponsible some people are - they just get together to have a child and then as soon as a child is born, father leaves... That makes me so mad. They bring a child into a broken family and they mess up that child's life before it even began. And I see it all the time. I wouldn't want that.

Having the right partner is freaking crucial.

This is why I am so picky.

Edited May 7, 2022 by somegirl

[Someone here]

7 minutes ago, somegirl said:

@Someone here Would like to have a child before I am 30.

I am still not 100% sure about child thing, but if/when I will be ready, that would be my ideal.

I think why I was hesitant to have a child is because I saw so many bad examples of how parents messed up their children.

I think it should be forbidden by law to have a child unless you are mentally and emotionally stable, I really believe that.

Also I don't like how irresponsible some people are - they just get together to have a child and then as soon as a child is born, father leaves... That makes me so mad. They bring a child into a broken family and they mess up that child's life before it even began. And I see it all the time. I wouldn't want that.

Having the right partner is freaking crucial.

This is why I am so picky.

Yeah i agree.  Being responsible parents is necessary.  And that can't happen without commitment from both the father and the mother. 

I would say though..that at least 25 to 30 per cent of the people do not need to get into marriage because it is just a passing interest for them. For another 30 to 40 per cent, it may be a little longer and they get into this. For 10 to 12 years they feel good and after that they think it is a burden. But there are some people for whom the need is very strong. About 25 to 30 per cent need partnerships for a much longer period – they definitely need to get into such arrangements.

Right now, people have found other kinds of solutions. “Okay, I wonc’t get married, I will just live-in.” If you are just living with one person, it is anyway a marriage, whether you have a certificate or not. But if you think you can choose your partners every weekend, you are causing serious damage to yoursel.

If you find that marriage is not necessary, that is it, once you make a decision, do not look that way. If you make a decision to go one way, do not look the other way. You must do one of these things. If you hang around in between, you will remain in a constant state of confusion. “Which is the best thing?” There is no best thing. Live your life in such a way that whatever you are doing, you are doing that absolutely. If you have this quality, whatever you do, it is fine.

[Carl-Richard]

One of my childhood friends that I haven't met in a while just became a father at 24. It's feels so weird to think about.

[Someone here]

11 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

One of my childhood friends that I haven't met in a while just became a father at 24. It's feels so weird to think about.

Yeah weird .not the perfect timing for it .he still have to mature enough first .

It is not compulsory or necessary for everyone to get married and have children. We would advise everyone to get married if the human race was in danger of disappearing, but the human population is exploding. If you do not reproduce, you do humanity a great service.

But if you get into marriage, and especially if you have children, it is a minimum 20-year project. That is if they do well. If they do not do well, it is a lifelong project. If you want to get into such projects, there must be a commitment to create a stable situation for at least 20 years. Otherwise, you should not get into such projects, drop it halfway and walk away.

And there is no need to talk about marriage and divorce in the same breath as if they come together. No one thought of divorce in India until recently. If it so happens something went entirely wrong between two people, there is no way to fix it, and they have to separate, it is unfortunate, but it happens. But you do not have to plan it at the time of the wedding

 

[zurew]

20 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

One of my childhood friends that I haven't met in a while just became a father at 24. It's feels so weird to think about.

Thats not even that suprising.

The country where i live, you get a big support if you are willing to get married. Because you can get a very good house loan, where if you make at least 3 children in the future, they will completely cancel the loan, so you don't need to pay it back anymore. (Of course this house loan has an upper limit, but still pretty good, and the only thing you basically need to do, is to get married)

Once you have your first child the loan gets better, so you don't need to pay back the full price. Once you have your second child it gets even better and with the third children you won't need to pay back anything anymore (regarding this loan).

 So a lot of young people starting mostly from the age 20 are getting married, mostly because of the money. Its interesting to see this dynamic playing out, but i don't think it healthy at all, and i don't think either, that its a good thing to build your marriage mostly on money, even if they don't admit it for themselves.

We are making a lot of stupid decisions when we are young, and when you get baited by money, it can get really ugly later.

Edited May 7, 2022 by zurew

[JonasVE12]

The only thing I would marry for is to let my lover feel she is the one. Women typically have this ideal of marriage from a young age, and if you are a man worth marrying, and the relationship is founded on love and freedom, then it will bring you even closer together. It's not about fulfilling needs. Your needs should be internally fulfilled. Marriage should be the icing on the cake. To really make your lover feel special. Most women I know have the desire to get married, but have kind of given up on the dream. But there still is this fantasy and curiosity of marrying to the man of their dreams, even if it is buried under all that seriousness. 

There are just not a lot of man out there that are worth marrying and staying long term with. A woman wants to be seen in a way much deeper than what most men are looking at. The same with a guy. It's that understanding of the deeper spirit of man and women that makes a marriage worth it.

If I meet a woman and I feel between us that energy of true passion, something that unites us that is greater than ourselves. A future. Then I will fulfill that dream of hers to marry and make that day special for her, to show her my appreciation. If I really love a woman, I want to allow her to fulfill that deeper fantasy of hers. You just want to make her feel special and appreciated all the time, not in a needy way, but genuinely, that comes from a place of power and intent. 

The mistake is when man and women don't understand themselves and the world around them. You can't control what you don't understand. If people would focus on internal first, and then external, there wouldn't be so much confusion.

If I want kids at a given point in my life, then I will know. Something deeper calls for it then. A feeling. And then if everything in my life is how it should be, sure. 

[Someone here]

22 minutes ago, JonasVE12 said:

It's not about fulfiling needs .

 

I disagree. An important point to remember is that you are not getting married out of charity for the other person. You get married because you have needs. If the other person is willing to provide them to you, and you live in gratitude, then there will not be too much friction. Do not look for the ideal man or the ideal woman. There is none. If you understand that it is your needs that make you seek a companion, find someone who is reasonably compatible with you, if you accept, respect, love, include, care for, and take responsibility for each other, it can be a beautiful relationship.

[Someone here]

36 minutes ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

My problem with marriage, is that it's like saying: "Alright, let's turn this huge block of time, which is basically the rest of my life, into one, singular phase called "marriage". And don't you dare escaping/transitioning into next phase!" This is my main problem. It's good to be commited to things, but you should also mantain some form of flexibility - because life is never static, life is dynamic. And if you just stay in one place for too long, chances are high you're going to suffer.

That's why divorce exist.

[zurew]

13 minutes ago, Someone here said:

I disagree. An important point to remember is that you are not getting married out of charity for the other person.

I think marriage originally was created for the creaton of families not for your personal desires. Nowadays it might be for personal desires, but originally it was about making an even stronger connection and bond. A lot of people thought that making the "break up" difficult and hard and painful, and expensive money wise, would motivate more people to try to make things work (especially if there are kids who can be affected by the divorce).

You can see even with muslims, that they put more value on family and less on happiness (especially women's happiness). So in a muslim culture, you can see women sacrificing their happiness and own goals for their family and kids sake (they won't pursue careers, they will stay home, they will stay being traditional, they won't cheat on their husband etcetc). Now this can be argued of course, how good or how bad it is , and in a liberal society women fortunately mostly have their choice and not forced to choose things they don't want to choose. 

Edited May 7, 2022 by zurew

[JonasVE12]

9 minutes ago, Someone here said:

I disagree. An important point to remember is that you are not getting married out of charity for the other person. You get married because you have needs. If the other person is willing to provide them to you, and you live in gratitude, then there will not be too much friction. Do not look for the ideal man or the ideal woman. There is none. If you understand that it is your needs that make you seek a companion, find someone who is reasonably compatible with you, if you accept, respect, love, include, care for, and take responsibility for each other, it can be a beautiful relationship.

This sounds very heavy. If you look at it like this, then you can see everything as a need. Living is the need of god to express life. Moving your hands to write your comment is your need to tell. The action of eating is the need to sustain your life. The more you focus on the heaviness of something, the more you see it in that same light. If you however focus on what's beyond constructs, thinking and conceptualizing, you see beauty, feeling and flow. Life shouldn't be so serious. Marriage can be experienced and told about in all kinds of ways. If you want to find deeper meaning of love, it can be useful to not think about everything as fulfilling 'needs'. This is all from the mind, but it misses holism and feeling. 

[zazen]

Depends if we'r talking legal marriage or just the ceremony. You can still have the wedding, rings, name changes, titles etc without legally getting married.  If long term 50% of marriages end, and most of the remaining stay together unhappily due to kids, religious convictions, social circles, comfort etc why make it so painful and entrapping not if but most likely when you decide to part ways. Divorce and the court system can cause financial and emotional ruin. 

It does provide security for the woman if/when she has children and is out of work and doesn't wish to depend on the husband. The power dynamic shifts too negatively with modern marriage laws towards women. The woman can weaponise sex to get what she wants out of the man (because he's vowed monogamy and mens sexual needs are on most of the time compared to a womens cyclical needs), financially threaten divorce, and cause emotional pain as she'll have custody of the children if they were to part. This can make the man more submissive in the relationship out of fear, which weakens her attraction only furthering the likelihood of all of the above. 

Best to come together and stay out of love than by the law. Can still have the fairytale theatrics to please everyone.

Some thoughts on not having kids and the reasons would be

- Culture (is the modern culture something you'd want your kids to be raised in)

- Court system (not being fair in case of divorce)

- Cost (very expensive financially, time wise also)

- Opportunity cost (in the modern world we can do so much more than just pro create) 

- Overpopulation (self explanatory)

 

 

Edited May 8, 2022 by zazen

[Someone here]

8 hours ago, Judy2 said:

In my opinion this is a very fearful perspective. It's kind of arrogant for us to believe that we have to fight existence and abolish all living beings so that they can stop suffering. Totally backwards, and it misses the greater point.

 

Well I'm actually a nihilist and an antinatalism advocator.  I believe existence as whole in general is a scary and awful place full of misery and suffering.  Despite few moments of pleasure here and there..the overall tone of existence is negative.  So who's us to force these babies to come to this fucked up world without asking for their permission?