Why is red above purple

[Jodistrict]

11 hours ago, Benton said:

@Jodistrict How do you define development?

What is it that makes a person or soceity developed, or more developed than another in your eyes?

Development is a world full of happy people who live in harmony with nature.   I have been basically trying to clear the record because there were a lot of harsh comments here on stage Purple that are based on imagined prejudices and not direct knowledge.   People from an ethnocentric and materialistic lens fail to see the brilliance of our ancestors.  These people were highly conscious.  I am not sure whether this is coming from the baked in prejudices of spiral dynamics or if it is spiral dynamics being misinterpreted.  The modern world is developed in knowledge for technology but has little wisdom.  Our only hope of survival is to rediscover this ancient wisdom.   There are still tribal societies on the Earth who know how to live in harmony with nature and can teach us to reconnect.

[thibault]

2 hours ago, Jodistrict said:

Development is a world full of happy people who live in harmony with nature.   I have been basically trying to clear the record because there were a lot of harsh comments here on stage Purple that are based on imagined prejudices and not direct knowledge.   People from an ethnocentric and materialistic lens fail to see the brilliance of our ancestors.  These people were highly conscious.  I am not sure whether this is coming from the baked in prejudices of spiral dynamics or if it is spiral dynamics being misinterpreted.  The modern world is developed in knowledge for technology but has little wisdom.  Our only hope of survival is to rediscover this ancient wisdom.   There are still tribal societies on the Earth who know how to live in harmony with nature and can teach us to reconnect.

Purple is ethnocentric.

9 hours ago, Benton said:

I would. But these kinds ain't sharing that same work ethic as their parents. They have not been through the orange roughs like their parents have.

Just because they are unaware of their stage orange nature, doesn't mean it's not there. If the money that is feeding and housing them stops then their stage green will collapse. If they themselves are not taking responsibility for that stage orange, someone else is; otherwise they couldn't be green.

[thibault]

44 minutes ago, Benton said:

I know.

But that individual is lacking orange. And its not like if the safety net is taken away they will suddenly understand their orange nature.

I am saying that you can be born into a stage of the spiral. Even if overall society had to go through all the previous stages to get there. 
So the individual development is not linear. 
 

 

You are born at the first stage. Society can facilitate your evolution through the stages. It is possible that society does this so well that you forget about some stages. Remove the safety net and a green is forced to face his orange nature regardless of how he "understands" it.

Linear is probably not the right word. Sequential is more accurate. It's like a stack of blocks :
 

|D|

|C|

|B|

|A|

 

You must place A before B and B before C. If you remove B, C and D collapse.

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, thibault said:

Linear is probably not the right word. Sequential is more accurate.

A sequence can be anything. "Linear" means it goes in one direction, and when it comes to growth, it's from lower to higher. Structural stage theory 101: development is the movement from lower to higher complexity.

[Jodistrict]

If complexity is the touchstone of development, then a ball of yarn is highly developed.  Or a totalitarian world system with every human implanted with chips to monitor their thoughts and actions would be highly complex.   

[Carl-Richard]

49 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

If complexity is the touchstone of development, then a ball of yarn is highly developed.  Or a totalitarian world system with every human implanted with chips to monitor their thoughts and actions would be highly complex.   

You missed the movement part.

[thibault]

15 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

You missed the movement part.

He also missed a lot of other things. At this point I think he's doing it on purpose.

[Jodistrict]

Movies are made by orange stage societies.  Of course, people in modern society perceive their way of life as comfortable, and can’t imagine any other way of living.  A fat lady who needs an electric cart to find the twinkies in Wal-Mart is higher consciousness than a native who can spear a fish at 40 feet, because she is stage orange.  

[thibault]

11 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

Movies are made by orange stage societies.  Of course, people in modern society perceive their way of life as comfortable, and can’t imagine any other way of living.  A fat lady who needs an electric cart to find the twinkies in Wal-Mart is higher consciousness than a native who can spear a fish at 40 feet, because she is stage orange.  

Can you study the Spiral Dynamics model thoroughly before posting nonsense in a thread about Spiral Dynamics ? The original poster is asking a Spiral Dynamics question, if you don't agree with Spiral Dynamics, that is fine don't post here. It's like going into a thread that says "What is God's plan?" just to post "I don't believe in God". What is the point exactly ?

[Carl-Richard]

45 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

Movies are made by orange stage societies.  Of course, people in modern society perceive their way of life as comfortable, and can’t imagine any other way of living.  A fat lady who needs an electric cart to find the twinkies in Wal-Mart is higher consciousness than a native who can spear a fish at 40 feet, because she is stage orange.  

One difference is that essentially anybody is welcome at Walmart. Am I welcome in any Purple tribe? It's easy to forget about the radical inclusivity of a multiplistic society compared to an isolated tribe in the Amazon.

[Jodistrict]

12 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

One difference is that essentially anybody is welcome at Walmart. Am I welcome in any Purple tribe? It's easy to forget about the radical inclusivity of a multiplistic society compared to an isolated tribe in the Amazon.

This is another value being promoted by the influencers of a modern complex society.  But even here, it has limited success since people still tend to form their own tribes in urban neighborhoods.   Tribes in the jungle keep the peace by being separate from each other, which is easier to do in a jungle.  They still may use the same river – a river would be like the Wal-Mart of a jungle.   A tribe doesn’t see the river as a resource so one tribe doesn’t try to control the river – like is commonly done by industrial societies.   So yes everyone is welcome at the jungle Walmart, i.e. river.
    
 

[thibault]

15 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

This is another value being promoted by the influencers of a modern complex society.  But even here, it has limited success since people still tend to form their own tribes in urban neighborhoods.   Tribes in the jungle keep the peace by being separate from each other, which is easier to do in a jungle.  They still may use the same river – a river would be like the Wal-Mart of a jungle.   A tribe doesn’t see the river as a resource so one tribe doesn’t try to control the river – like is commonly done by industrial societies.   So yes everyone is welcome at the jungle Walmart, i.e. river.

Trying very hard to miss the point. Yes ! Of course ! People in urban neighborhoods live the same as people in the jungle ! All bow down to @Jodistrict, master of consciousness ! 

[Cesco]

1 hour ago, Jodistrict said:

Movies are made by orange stage societies.  Of course, people in modern society perceive their way of life as comfortable, and can’t imagine any other way of living.  A fat lady who needs an electric cart to find the twinkies in Wal-Mart is higher consciousness than a native who can spear a fish at 40 feet, because she is stage orange.  

What exactly does this have to do with spiral dynamics. Your essentially comparing two different people from completely different environements with completely different skills. The native with a spear may be skilled with a spear, but thats only because hes forced to in the circumstances he lives in. The fat woman in walmart buying twinkies is higher on the pyramid because she was able to stop worrying about surviving, and evolve. The native thinks only about the survival of the tribe.

[Carl-Richard]

54 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

This is another value being promoted by the influencers of a modern complex society.  But even here, it has limited success since people still tend to form their own tribes in urban neighborhoods.   Tribes in the jungle keep the peace by being separate from each other, which is easier to do in a jungle.  They still may use the same river – a river would be like the Wal-Mart of a jungle.   A tribe doesn’t see the river as a resource so one tribe doesn’t try to control the river – like is commonly done by industrial societies.   So yes everyone is welcome at the jungle Walmart, i.e. river.

To use the river, you have to be in a tribe in the first place. You can't live on your own. Same with Walmart. You're living in society. So I can't use the river, but I can use Walmart.

[Jodistrict]

4 hours ago, Cesco said:

What exactly does this have to do with spiral dynamics. Your essentially comparing two different people from completely different environements with completely different skills. The native with a spear may be skilled with a spear, but thats only because hes forced to in the circumstances he lives in. The fat woman in walmart buying twinkies is higher on the pyramid because she was able to stop worrying about surviving, and evolve. The native thinks only about the survival of the tribe.

I am disputing the inference that some are drawing from spiral dynamics that higher stages of the spiral are more conscious than lower stages.  The fat woman is unconscious of the fact that she is killing herself with food.  This is unconscious behavior.   Someone who mistakes a movie for reality, who thinks he understands reality because he has seen a movie is unconscious.  In the jungle, this would be like mistaking a crocodile for a log.   In industrial society millions of people are sleepwalking through life and still survive.  If you sleepwalk in a jungle, you die.  Watching 8 hours of television a day is not evolving.  The tribes were about more than survival, they had shamanism and a rich cultural life. 

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Jodistrict said:

I am disputing the inference that some are drawing from spiral dynamics that higher stages of the spiral are more conscious than lower stages.  The fat woman is unconscious of the fact that she is killing herself with food.  This is unconscious behavior.   Someone who mistakes a movie for reality, who thinks he understands reality because he has seen a movie is unconscious.  In the jungle, this would be like mistaking a crocodile for a log.   In industrial society millions of people are sleepwalking through life and still survive.  If you sleepwalk in a jungle, you die.  Watching 8 hours of television a day is not evolving.  The tribes were about more than survival, they had shamanism and a rich cultural life. 

Is a snake in the jungle more conscious than a fat lady at the candy store?

[Human Mint]

6 hours ago, Cesco said:

The fat woman in walmart buying twinkies is higher on the pyramid because she was able to stop worrying about surviving, and evolve.

She had the option to be lazy

 

[Cesco]

1 hour ago, Jodistrict said:

I am disputing the inference that some are drawing from spiral dynamics that higher stages of the spiral are more conscious than lower stages.  The fat woman is unconscious of the fact that she is killing herself with food.  This is unconscious behavior.   Someone who mistakes a movie for reality, who thinks he understands reality because he has seen a movie is unconscious.  In the jungle, this would be like mistaking a crocodile for a log.   In industrial society millions of people are sleepwalking through life and still survive.  If you sleepwalk in a jungle, you die.  Watching 8 hours of television a day is not evolving.  The tribes were about more than survival, they had shamanism and a rich cultural life. 

Shamanism was the answer to any unanswered questions. Its very magical, which is what stage purple is about from what i now understand. If you take a caveman and put him in front of a tv, he will say its magic. If you take the twinkie woman from walmart in front of a tv, she will say its science. This is why she is higher on the model. An example of this magical and illogical thinking is the idea of dream catchers. They would make wooden circles full of string and say that if you slept next to it, it will catch your nightmares. From what ive gathered, red is higher than purple because it abandons shamanism, and magical thinking. If red is higher because of that general vague reason, (Theres other factors of course) then obviously orange being more advanced than red will be more advanced than purple.

[Cesco]

10 minutes ago, Human Mint said:

She had the option to be lazy

 

Because the society she lives in was able to go past survival mode. No?

[Human Mint]

7 minutes ago, Cesco said:

Because the society she lives in was able to go past survival mode. No?

Yes yes, the comment popped in my head when reading yours. I'm getting more in touch with SD, with no much to add, but it's getting more interesting to read.