Why is red above purple

[Jodistrict]

11 hours ago, Fearey said:

Not only is it an inference, it's a factual statement.

What you're doing is akin to thinking your pet is stage Turquoise because they're always happy around you. It's nonsensical.

That requires proof.  Where is your evidence?

[Jodistrict]

9 hours ago, Cesco said:

Shamanism was the answer to any unanswered questions. Its very magical, which is what stage purple is about from what i now understand. If you take a caveman and put him in front of a tv, he will say its magic. If you take the twinkie woman from walmart in front of a tv, she will say its science. This is why she is higher on the model. An example of this magical and illogical thinking is the idea of dream catchers. They would make wooden circles full of string and say that if you slept next to it, it will catch your nightmares. From what ive gathered, red is higher than purple because it abandons shamanism, and magical thinking. If red is higher because of that general vague reason, (Theres other factors of course) then obviously orange being more advanced than red will be more advanced than purple.

The comments I am reading here about stage purple sounds like the stereotype images of racist 1940s cartoons.  Like a figure with slanted eyes represents a Japanese man.  Or a native has a bone through his nose.   Is Spiral Dynamics really this shallow?  Is this a theory dreamed up in an ivory tower by theorists who have not actually had real contact with tribal people (who still exist on the planet)?

Edited May 12, 2022 by Jodistrict

[Cesco]

On 2022-05-04 at 4:18 PM, thisintegrated said:

 

 

4 hours ago, Jodistrict said:

The comments I am reading here about stage purple sounds like the stereotype images of racist 1940s cartoons.  Like a figure with slanted eyes represents a Japanese man.  Or a native has a bone through his nose.   Is Spiral Dynamics really this shallow?  Is this a theory dreamed up in an ivory tower by theorists who have not actually had real contact with tribal people (who still exist on the planet)?

The “stereotype” you keep referring to and what I’m saying is not false. I have native blood in me I know how they thought. What I said is pretty accurate to what actually happened. They used to take their children and throw them in a forest to find out their spirit animal. And whatever interaction they had with an animal is their spirit animal. It may sound like I’m stereotyping, but it is what actually happened. Back to the point of this conversation, the woman in Walmart is apart of a society that grew past shamanism, and spirit animals, and all of this unpractical magical thinking. The reason you probably think I’m stereotyping is because of the way we sugar coat indigenous people because of how they were Mistreated a few centuries ago. But if you look past that event, the “stereotype” you believe I’m representing them as is actually accurate.

[thibault]

4 hours ago, Jodistrict said:

The comments I am reading here about stage purple sounds like the stereotype images of racist 1940s cartoons.  Like a figure with slanted eyes represents a Japanese man.  Or a native has a bone through his nose.   Is Spiral Dynamics really this shallow?  Is this a theory dreamed up in an ivory tower by theorists who have not actually had real contact with tribal people (who still exist on the planet)?

Maybe read the book I don't know ? Watch Leo's videos on it at the very least ? I have no clue how to cure your cruel lack of education on this topic. You are walking Dunning–Kruger right now.

[Carl-Richard]

@Jodistrict You're getting hung up on normative interpretations of the models through metrics like "progress", "harmony with nature" and "consciousness". This isn't necessary. You don't have to assert anything in advance about what development is (other than its basic phenomenal nature; change, growth etc.) in order to appreciate the descriptive and predictive utility of these models. Development isn't good or bad unless you say so.

Structural stage models merely choose a domain of study, e.g. cognition, and then they try to observe development through a lens of stages. What happens to be universal across these observations is the movement from simplicity to complexity, but that is simply a descriptive statement. Complexity isn't better than simplicity unless you say so. Complexity is arguably more messy and chaotic than simplicity, which could explain some of your reactions to it imo.

[Gesundheit2]

You can invert the criteria that the model is based on then look at it again, and it will look upside down. Red will become below Purple and above Blue.

[Gesundheit2]

To answer more seriously, think of it like this: A tree doesn't grow without a soil. Purple is the soil for the trees of Red.

Then again,

Roses are red. Violets are blue.

Spiral Dynamics. I love you.

[thisintegrated]

9 hours ago, Cesco said:

The “stereotype” you keep referring to and what I’m saying is not false. I have native blood in me I know how they thought. What I said is pretty accurate to what actually happened. They used to take their children and throw them in a forest to find out their spirit animal. And whatever interaction they had with an animal is their spirit animal. It may sound like I’m stereotyping, but it is what actually happened. Back to the point of this conversation, the woman in Walmart is apart of a society that grew past shamanism, and spirit animals, and all of this unpractical magical thinking. The reason you probably think I’m stereotyping is because of the way we sugar coat indigenous people because of how they were Mistreated a few centuries ago. But if you look past that event, the “stereotype” you believe I’m representing them as is actually accurate.

Purple is just a stage everyone goes through.  Purple has, literally, absolutely nothing to do with tribalism.  You should be able to remember yourself being purple as a child, yet you never lived in the jungle with a tribe, a shaman, tigers, etc. (correct me if I'm wrong).

[Cesco]

9 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Purple is just a stage everyone goes through.  Purple has, literally, absolutely nothing to do with tribalism.  You should be able to remember yourself being purple as a child, yet you never lived in the jungle with a tribe, a shaman, tigers, etc. (correct me if I'm wrong).

This makes a-lot of sense to me. I could remember having magical thinking when i was a few years old only 12 years ago. But could people skip stages if they are born in a family that is extremely integrated into one spiral stage. Pun intended

[Carl-Richard]

35 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Purple is just a stage everyone goes through.  Purple has, literally, absolutely nothing to do with tribalism.  You should be able to remember yourself being purple as a child, yet you never lived in the jungle with a tribe, a shaman, tigers, etc. (correct me if I'm wrong).

The collective manifestation of Purple, untouched by the modern world, is a tribal society.

[Happy Lizard]

16 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

The collective manifestation of Purple, untouched by the modern world, is a tribal society.

I can remember magical-thinking in my childhood, but what would mirror tribalism in a child mindset?  

[thisintegrated]

13 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

The collective manifestation of Purple, untouched by the modern world, is a tribal society.

Were the vikings and similar european communities tribal??

49 minutes ago, Cesco said:

This makes a-lot of sense to me. I could remember having magical thinking when i was a few years old only 12 years ago. But could people skip stages if they are born in a family that is extremely integrated into one spiral stage. Pun intended

No.  Though they may take on some of the traits of the stage the family's at.

[Jodistrict]

"At the center of the universe dwells the Great Spirit.  And that center is really everywhere.  It is within each of us."

    -  Black Elk

Black Elk was a medicine man and warrior of the Oglala Lakota people.  He was certainly tribal and grew up stage purple. The above quote could be seen as expressing non dualism.  These people were highly conscious.   Spiral Dynamics is leaving out too much reality and creating a cartoonish stereotype to maintain the consistency of their model. 

https://discoveringnonduality.com/2019/01/14/black-elk-and-the-center-of-all-of-us/

 

[Cesco]

On 2022-05-04 at 4:18 PM, thisintegrated said:

 

 

13 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

"At the center of the universe dwells the Great Spirit.  And that center is really everywhere.  It is within each of us."

    -  Black Elk

Black Elk was a medicine man and warrior of the Oglala Lakota people.  He was certainly tribal and grew up stage purple. The above quote could be seen as expressing non dualism.  These people were highly conscious.   Spiral Dynamics is leaving out too much reality and creating a cartoonish stereotype to maintain the consistency of their model. 

https://discoveringnonduality.com/2019/01/14/black-elk-and-the-center-of-all-of-us/

 

But what defines conciousness for you

[Carl-Richard]

10 hours ago, thisintegrated said:

Were the vikings and similar european communities tribal??

The vikings were Red. The Viking Age lasted from the 8th to the 11th century.

[Carl-Richard]

@Jodistrict

Non-dualism has existed side by side with slavery.

 

[thibault]

On 5/4/2022 at 4:45 PM, Jodistrict said:

I don’t agree with Spiral Dynamics and its progress bias that puts “purple” on the lower end of a spiral.   Anthropologists say that the cultures of the indigenous tribal people were as sophisticated and complex as modern society.    Furthermore, their lifestyle is actually sustainable, unlike modern society which is unsustainable and threatening the very existence of the planet.  And the argument that they were primitive and violent is the weakest given all the people killed in World Wars I and II.   Also, people are generally happier when they are living in small communities and connected with each other.  And their animistic beliefs in the sacredness of nature are missing in the materialistic modern societies which see nature as a “resource” to be exploited.   Instead of a spiral, maybe there is a cycle from balanced to unbalanced to balanced.         

 

On 5/5/2022 at 10:08 PM, Jodistrict said:

Spiral Dynamics does not show a growth of consciousness, but a growth in military capability.  The tribal societies were destroyed by violence (e.g., the American Indians).  They are whole and complete in themselves and can exist in harmony with nature forever if they are left alone.   

It’s modern society which is unbalanced and unsustainable.  

http://www.gobarefootblog.com/environment/how-many-earths-do-we-need-to-live/

 

On 5/7/2022 at 3:32 PM, Jodistrict said:

Maybe, true enlightenment is to return to stage purple.

But this psychological well-being is not due, as some might think, to a lack of pressure. It is ethnocentric to suppose that only industrialized societies can produce psychological pressure, or that psychological difficulties are found only in such societies. True, the Pirahãs don’t have to worry about paying their bills on time or which college to select for their children. But they do have life-threatening physical ailments (such as malaria, infection, viruses, leish-maniasis, and so on). And they have love lives. And they need to provide food for their families.
 

 

On 5/7/2022 at 8:23 PM, Jodistrict said:

In the Buddhist scriptures there are many examples of men who became instantly enlightened by hearing the words of the Buddha.    But in modern society, people meditate for decades without any improvement.   Could it have been the different in culture?  The men in Buddha’s time came from tribes and had the tribal world view and a non materialistic mindset.   It didn’t take much for them to transition into full enlightenment.  

The purple stages were overcome through violence, not because they lacked anything.   Thus, the conquering stages had better military strength.  Having thousands of people as slaves building irrigation systems for the Nile is not an improvement of cognitive ability.

 

On 5/9/2022 at 8:22 PM, Jodistrict said:

This again  assumes the stage orange value of "progress".  The seed is the tree.  

 

 

On 5/10/2022 at 8:17 AM, Jodistrict said:

Development is a world full of happy people who live in harmony with nature.   I have been basically trying to clear the record because there were a lot of harsh comments here on stage Purple that are based on imagined prejudices and not direct knowledge.   People from an ethnocentric and materialistic lens fail to see the brilliance of our ancestors.  These people were highly conscious.  I am not sure whether this is coming from the baked in prejudices of spiral dynamics or if it is spiral dynamics being misinterpreted.  The modern world is developed in knowledge for technology but has little wisdom.  Our only hope of survival is to rediscover this ancient wisdom.   There are still tribal societies on the Earth who know how to live in harmony with nature and can teach us to reconnect.

Quote

He was certainly tribal and grew up stage purple. The above quote could be seen as expressing non dualism.  These people were highly conscious.   Spiral Dynamics is leaving out too much reality and creating a cartoonish stereotype to maintain the consistency of their model.

@Jodistrict Every post you make in this thread reveals that you are just inventing what you think Spiral Dynamics is as you go. Your fundamental mistake is confusing distinction for hierarchy.

[Michal__]

10 hours ago, Jodistrict said:

"At the center of the universe dwells the Great Spirit.  And that center is really everywhere.  It is within each of us."

    -  Black Elk

Black Elk was a medicine man and warrior of the Oglala Lakota people.  He was certainly tribal and grew up stage purple. The above quote could be seen as expressing non dualism.  These people were highly conscious.   Spiral Dynamics is leaving out too much reality and creating a cartoonish stereotype to maintain the consistency of their model. 

https://discoveringnonduality.com/2019/01/14/black-elk-and-the-center-of-all-of-us/

 

Spiral dynamics shouldnt be used as a map for consciousness development but as a map for ego development (which is connected to consciousness development, but it is not the same).

Hence why someone who is stage purple CAN be way more conscious than a stage orange person. But they will definitely misinterpret many of their spiritual experiences because of lower cognitive capacity (cognitive development is a part of spiral dynamics).

eg. young Jesus performing miracles (killing and ressurecting people with siddhis) during his childhood was obviously lower than stage blue but still extremely conscious

Edited May 13, 2022 by Michal__

[thisintegrated]

6 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

The vikings were Red. The Viking Age lasted from the 8th to the 11th century.

The warriors were red, sure, but not the peasants/farmers in rural communities. 

[Carl-Richard]

19 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

The warriors were red, sure, but not the peasants/farmers in rural communities. 

Then that goes back to the previous point. The collective manifestation of Purple, untouched by any higher stages, is a tribal society. The 8th-11th century was an era of feudal kings and empires; Red. If you were a farmer at that time, you were living inside a kingdom.