Why is red above purple

[thisintegrated]

4 hours ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

You have no idea.

What do you mean?

[Carl-Richard]

9 hours ago, thisintegrated said:

And what do you consider "true purple"?

People who grow up in a Purple society.

[Jodistrict]

As I mentioned, Everett was a Christian missionary who spent years trying to convert the Pirahãs. He eventually gave up and lost his faith.  They converted him.  He later found out that they have resisted over 200 years of missionaries trying to convert them.

Here is an interesting encounter with the Pirahas, when he was trying to covert them.

The Pirahã men then asked, “Hey Dan, what does Jesus look like? Is he dark like us or light like you?” 

I said, “Well, I have never actually seen him. He lived a long time ago. But I do have his words.” 

“Well, Dan, how do you have his words if you have never heard him or seen him?”

They then made it clear that if I had not actually seen this guy (and not in any metaphorical sense, but literally), they weren’t interested in any stories I had to tell about him. Period. This is because, as I now knew, the Pirahãs believe only what they see. Sometimes they also believe in things that someone else has told them, so long as that person has personally witnessed what he or she is reporting.

Notice that the Pirahas have an epistimology that makes them virtually scam proof.   Their requirements for evidence is more rigorous than the rules of evidence of the US Federal Courts.  This is an example of stage Purple intelligence.

Everett, Daniel L.. Don't Sleep, There Are Snakes: Life and Language in the Amazonian Jungle (Vintage Departures) . Knopf Doubleday Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
 

[Carl-Richard]

26 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

Notice that the Pirahas have an epistimology that makes them virtually scam proof.   Their requirements for evidence is more rigorous than the rules of evidence of the US Federal Courts.  This is an example of stage Purple intelligence.

You can't scam a rock either.

[Michal__]

9 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

You can't scam a rock either.

Stage purple shamans are still more conscious than most modern stage orange people since they actually do some sort of spiritual practice  and spiral dynamics do not equal level of consciousness.

[Carl-Richard]

19 minutes ago, Michal__ said:

Stage purple shamans are still more conscious than most modern stage orange people since they actually do some sort of spiritual practice  and spiral dynamics do not equal level of consciousness.

That has nothing to do with what I said. My point is that you can't fool a Purple because they don't engage in the level of abstract thinking that is required to be fooled.

[Michal__]

4 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

That has nothing to do with what I said. My point is that you can't fool a Purple because they don't engage in the level of abstract thinking that is required to be fooled.

The way their language functions is so different that it is not so easy to assess if they are able to think abstractly or not. 

But yeah, abstract thinking obviously works better at the higher stages (which is easily apparent just by comparing a stage blue person with a stage orange/green person).

[Ulax]

At purple your identity is the following:

- You are identified as a unit of a tribe, not an individual,

The Transformational dilemma from red to purple is the following:

- Realising that you would be better positioned if you were not part of the tribe but dominated the tribe.

To me its really the birth of individual self. Perhaps akin to a toddler who throws tantrums all the time, and is less agreeable than at previous developmental stages. Its a key phase to embody, and integrate. No doubt there are major issues outside of a specific context for that psychic position, so its key to develop through eventually.

I get your scepticism, tho.

I guess I make spiral dynamics make sense by virtue of the transformational dilemmas from one stage to the other.
 

[thibault]

All the people glorifying purple in this thread have seriously missed the point of the SD model. Each stage BUILDS and is NOT SEPARATE from the previous one. i.e. Red can't develop without a Purple foundation so in a way Red actually includes Purple. If you want to lose consciousness and destroy all the development that society has provided you for free, go ahead just buy a bottle of vodka every day and you will return to purple soon enough.

If you want to return to nature and live in harmony, go do it, or maybe read Into the Wild first. There is nothing virtuous about being stage purple like there is nothing virtuous about being a mouse, a tree, or a human. We have very little to learn from a cow or a donkey and yet that does not mean we are superior. We live, die, chase food and sex like every other animal and in that way we are all the same. We only differ in the way to get there. That is what SD describes.

[thisintegrated]

14 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

People who grow up in a Purple society.

So are Yellows just people from Yellow societies and Turquoises just people from Turquoise societies?

[Carl-Richard]

8 hours ago, thisintegrated said:

So are Yellows just people from Yellow societies and Turquoises just people from Turquoise societies?

No. I used quotation marks for a reason.

[Jodistrict]

10 hours ago, thibault said:

If you want to lose consciousness and destroy all the development that society has provided you for free, go ahead just buy a bottle of vodka every day and you will return to purple soon enough.

 

This is expressing the values of a stage orange culture.    Living in the jungle is the opposite of being drunk.  If you aren't alert, it won't take long to be bitten by a snake.  It is also the opposite of losing consciousness.   Sitting in an office 8 hours a day and then going home to watch TV is how you lose consciousness.  

[thibault]

3 hours ago, Jodistrict said:

This is expressing the values of a stage orange culture.    Living in the jungle is the opposite of being drunk.  If you aren't alert, it won't take long to be bitten by a snake.  It is also the opposite of losing consciousness.   Sitting in an office 8 hours a day and then going home to watch TV is how you lose consciousness.  

You are however brutally unaware of the stage orange "snake" that is razing your forests. That is what low consciousness means. Inability to conceptualize what is happening, inability to formulate solutions. It is not good or bad that your forests are being razed, to society it's good, to the tribe it's bad. You are the one glamorizing one stage over another when this is not what SD is about at all. All stages are equal but a seed is not the same as a tree.

[Jodistrict]

6 hours ago, thibault said:

All stages are equal but a seed is not the same as a tree.

This again  assumes the stage orange value of "progress".  The seed is the tree.  

 

[thibault]

30 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

This again  assumes the stage orange value of "progress".  The seed is the tree.  

You assume that differentiation between stages implies progress.

[Carl-Richard]

55 minutes ago, Benton said:

@Jodistrict How do you define development?

What is it that makes a person or soceity developed, or more developed than another in your eyes?

He doesn't believe in the concept of linear growth.

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Benton said:

@Jodistrict @Carl-Richard  Doesn’t believe in development at all?

I don’t think development is linear.

Structural stage models are linear. There does exist good critiques of stage models (e.g. Barbara Rogoff), but I still think they're useful.

[Thought Art]

Pyramids must exist for higher complexity systems 

[thibault]

1 minute ago, Benton said:

But it is possible to be green without an orange backbone. Right?

Overall I get the linear thing. But it isn't entirely true.

It's possible to be green pretending you don't have an orange backbone.

[thibault]

4 minutes ago, Benton said:

What do you mean?

Maybe this green persons parents have an orange backbone. But I have seen so many people in green without any of that good stuff they need from orange. 

 

Would you not qualify a person's parents to be a backbone of their development ?