Why is red above purple

[thisintegrated]

1 hour ago, thibault said:

I think there is a huge mistake with spiral dynamics with people thinking that as you go up the levels you increase in morality. This is not at all what spiral dynamics describes. All it describes is the evolution of consciousness. What stages come first and what stages come next. In the same way we would find it ridiculous to say a fully grown tree is "better" than a sapling, stage yellow is not "better" than stage purple. It only describes the natural evolution of consciousness over time. Many people see this kind of model and intuit or assume that later/more developed stages imply higher moral character or some sort of objective "betterness". This is absolutely incorrect and false. In the same way we would say a plant starts as as a seed to a seedling to a sapling to maturity to a huge tree in the middle of a forest, spiral dynamics only describes natural growth of consciousness. There is absolutely no moral judgment behind it. Interpreting it in this way misses the entire point of the model.

A fully grown tree that produces fruit is better than a sapling.  But they're both the same thing so the tree shouldn't feel proud of being better, and the sapling shouldn't feel sad for being worse.

[alpha_ulrich]

19 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

@thibault

Purple: unite the tribe.

- problem: our tribe is expanding and our neighbors are bothering us.

Red: unite everyone under me.

- problem: constant war, chaos reigns, empires fall.

Blue: unite people under God.

- problem: not all people accept God, and people disagree about what God is.

Orange: unite people who are rational.

- problem: not all people are rational, and rational people disagree with each other.

Green: unite people who are not cruel.

- problem: cruel is subjective, and not all people are not cruel.

Tier 2: unite all people.

- problem: all of the above.

Thank you. This post has given me a lot of clarity.

[thibault]

7 hours ago, thisintegrated said:

A fully grown tree that produces fruit is better than a sapling.  But they're both the same thing so the tree shouldn't feel proud of being better, and the sapling shouldn't feel sad for being worse.

From who's perspective ?

[Jodistrict]

Stage purple is still relevant.   There are still uncontacted tribes, mostly in Brazil.  They are living meaningful and sustainable lives in harmony with nature and apparently have found no desire to walk up a spiral for the sake of self improvement.  Their way of life is being increasingly threatened by the stage orange thirst for resources.     
    
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20140804-sad-truth-of-uncontacted-tribes

Spiral Dynamics does not show a growth of consciousness, but a growth in military capability.  The tribal societies were destroyed by violence (e.g., the American Indians).  They are whole and complete in themselves and can exist in harmony with nature forever if they are left alone.   

It’s modern society which is unbalanced and unsustainable.  

http://www.gobarefootblog.com/environment/how-many-earths-do-we-need-to-live/

[Carl-Richard]

17 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

There are still uncontacted tribes, mostly in Brazil.  They are living meaningful and sustainable lives in harmony with nature and apparently have found no desire to walk up a spiral for the sake of self improvement.

Teach them agriculture and see how long that lasts  

[thisintegrated]

10 hours ago, thibault said:

From who's perspective ?

Yours

[thisintegrated]

3 hours ago, Jodistrict said:

Stage purple is still relevant.   There are still uncontacted tribes, mostly in Brazil.  They are living meaningful and sustainable lives in harmony with nature and apparently have found no desire to walk up a spiral for the sake of self improvement.  Their way of life is being increasingly threatened by the stage orange thirst for resources.     

Purple != tribes in the jungle

Most kids and autists are around purple.

Edited May 5, 2022 by thisintegrated

[Jodistrict]

9 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Teach them agriculture and see how long that lasts  

Living in a jungle is like living in a grocery store.   Maybe that's why they were never motivated to develop agriculture.  

[Carl-Richard]

1 minute ago, Jodistrict said:

Living in a jungle is like living in a grocery store.   Maybe that's why they were never motivated to develop agriculture.  

Tropical rainforests are especially hard to do agriculture in without some serious deforesting. The lower parts get almost no direct sunlight, and also the soil is very nutrient poor. That is most likely why civilization developed in the grasslands of the Indus Valley.

[thibault]

20 hours ago, thisintegrated said:

Yours

 

18 hours ago, thisintegrated said:

Purple != tribes in the jungle

Most kids and autists are around purple.

So when you see a kid your reaction is to think that you are better than that kid ? Do you not have an intuition that you were once where he is and he will one day be where you are ? To me what you are saying is like saying that the end of a movie is better than the beginning. While you need the beginning to appreciate the end and you could say there is more complexity being played out in the end, is it really fair to say the end is better than the beginning ? Maybe we are just arguing over semantics here but I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to say.

 

21 hours ago, Jodistrict said:

Spiral Dynamics does not show a growth of consciousness, but a growth in military capability.  The tribal societies were destroyed by violence (e.g., the American Indians).  They are whole and complete in themselves and can exist in harmony with nature forever if they are left alone.

Are humans not part of nature ?

[thisintegrated]

7 hours ago, thibault said:

So when you see a kid your reaction is to think that you are better than that kid ? Do you not have an intuition that you were once where he is and he will one day be where you are ?

I see you didn't read my other reply..

 

On 05/05/2022 at 4:14 AM, thisintegrated said:

A fully grown tree that produces fruit is better than a sapling.  But they're both the same thing so the tree shouldn't feel proud of being better, and the sapling shouldn't feel sad for being worse.

An adult is better than a child at doing what humans do.  But so what? I'm not in any way suggesting that's reason to have some kind of superiority complex.  Yes, adults are objectively "better" in most contexts, and if that makes you feel bad that's your own problem to solve.  It's like if I say "3 is above 2" and you get upset that I'm discriminating against 2.

Edited May 7, 2022 by thisintegrated

[Carl-Richard]

On 6.5.2022 at 1:27 AM, thisintegrated said:

Purple != tribes in the jungle

Most kids and autists are around purple.

Most of these people never experience "true" Purple, because they're most likely imbedded in a non-Purple society.

[Jodistrict]

One interesting account of a contact with true tribal people has been written by Daniel L. Everett in “Don’t  Sleep, There are snakes”.  Everett was a linguist and Christian missionary.   After years of living with the tribes he renounced his faith realizing that they were happy and had a better way of life.    Maybe, true enlightenment is to return to stage purple.

“Looking more closely at Pirahã language and culture, there are other, equally important lessons for us. The Pirahãs show no evidence of depression, chronic fatigue, extreme anxiety, panic attacks, or other psychological ailments common in many industrialized societies.

But this psychological well-being is not due, as some might think, to a lack of pressure. It is ethnocentric to suppose that only industrialized societies can produce psychological pressure, or that psychological difficulties are found only in such societies. True, the Pirahãs don’t have to worry about paying their bills on time or which college to select for their children. But they do have life-threatening physical ailments (such as malaria, infection, viruses, leish-maniasis, and so on). And they have love lives. And they need to provide food for their families.

I have never heard a Pirahã say that he or she is worried. In fact, so far as I can tell, the Pirahãs have no word for worry in their language. One group of visitors to the Pirahãs, psychologists from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology’s Brain and Cognitive Science Department, commented that the Pirahãs appeared to be the happiest people they had ever seen.” 

Everett, Daniel L.. Don't Sleep, There Are Snakes: Life and Language in the Amazonian Jungle (Vintage Departures) . Knopf Doubleday Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
 

[Carl-Richard]

29 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

I have never heard a Pirahã say that he or she is worried. In fact, so far as I can tell, the Pirahãs have no word for worry in their language. One group of visitors to the Pirahãs, psychologists from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology’s Brain and Cognitive Science Department, commented that the Pirahãs appeared to be the happiest people they had ever seen.” 

That is the trade-off for complex division of labor, wealth accumulation and space travel. You start worrying about things that can go wrong  

[Happy Lizard]

On 5/5/2022 at 4:08 PM, Jodistrict said:

Spiral Dynamics does not show a growth of consciousness, but a growth in military capability.

I think your conflicting ideas, “consciousness” here does not mean “virtuousness” but cognitive-ability.

meaning each stage is more cognitively capable than the last.

you can’t argue that purple has more cognitive ability than orange, for example, because thats just not true.

Edited May 7, 2022 by Happy Lizard

[AtheisticNonduality]

On 5/5/2022 at 7:27 PM, thisintegrated said:

Most kids and autists are around purple.

You have no idea.

[Jodistrict]

2 hours ago, Happy Lizard said:

I think your conflicting ideas, “consciousness” here does not mean “virtuousness” but cognitive-ability.

meaning each stage is more cognitively capable than the last.

you can’t argue that purple has more cognitive ability than orange, for example, because thats just not true.

In the Buddhist scriptures there are many examples of men who became instantly enlightened by hearing the words of the Buddha.    But in modern society, people meditate for decades without any improvement.   Could it have been the different in culture?  The men in Buddha’s time came from tribes and had the tribal world view and a non materialistic mindset.   It didn’t take much for them to transition into full enlightenment.  

The purple stages were overcome through violence, not because they lacked anything.   Thus, the conquering stages had better military strength.  Having thousands of people as slaves building irrigation systems for the Nile is not an improvement of cognitive ability.

[Happy Lizard]

41 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

Having thousands of people as slaves building irrigation systems for the Nile is not an improvement of cognitive ability.

of course it is, you mean to say that bridges and buildings are not a sign of a more complex, more capable mind? 
 

1 hour ago, Jodistrict said:

Could it have been the different in culture?  The men in Buddha’s time came from tribes and had the tribal world view and a non materialistic mindset.   It didn’t take much for them to transition into full enlightenment.  

what you are talking about is called the pre-trans fallacy, ken wilber talks about it here :

 

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Jodistrict said:

In the Buddhist scriptures there are many examples of men who became instantly enlightened by hearing the words of the Buddha.    But in modern society, people meditate for decades without any improvement.   Could it have been the different in culture?  The men in Buddha’s time came from tribes and had the tribal world view and a non materialistic mindset.   It didn’t take much for them to transition into full enlightenment.  

The purple stages were overcome through violence, not because they lacked anything.   Thus, the conquering stages had better military strength.  Having thousands of people as slaves building irrigation systems for the Nile is not an improvement of cognitive ability.

I will agree that modern society clutters one's mind and that pre-modern environments are more conducive to spiritual growth, but people have spontaneous awakenings with or without guru transmission all the time regardless of culture.

Cognitive ability is a bit broad, but if we're talking about abstract thought, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the utility of it. It lead to things like modern medicine, something a tribal shaman would die for.

[thisintegrated]

13 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Most of these people never experience "true" Purple, because they're most likely imbedded in a non-Purple society.

And what do you consider "true purple"?