Why is red above purple

[Cesco]

The stereotype values that red represents seem lower consciousness than the stereotype purple values. With the example of an indigenous tribe, purple seems to be more organized and peaceful than red. Even showing a hint of a justice system with the social hierarchy in the families of the tribe. Red seems to just have the most savage and brutal ways of living compared to purple, so its unclear to me why its placed higher on the spiral dynamics chain. Another example of peace that purple had was when the english and french came to canada and the US to take over and met the tribes. The first nations were willingly trading with them and had no intention of starting war, until the english and french started converting them and ect.  I feel like red would attack at first sight in the name of defending their territory. Which im certain happened in between the tribes, however it did not happen with the explorers. Also, when purple would attack an animal to eat or take something from nature, they would thank nature and appreciate the things given, which is something i could see blue doing in the name of god. Meanwhile red didnt give a shit about anything and just took it. I understand that morality is not the basis of conciousness, but im still confused. Can anyone explain?

[thisintegrated]

Cats are more calm and gentle than Reds, but does that make cats more advanced?  Are cats really Turquoise?

Cats just don't have the awareness to have Red motivations.  Purples are the same.  It's not that Purples decide against violence, the thought just never occurs to them.

[Ninja_pig]

I think that red is the first stage that really allows society to happen. The dark ages and feudalism were basically stage red, especially among the nobility. Red is the first stage that really has concepts of specific rules for justice and allows itself to interact with strangers. This differs from purple whose whole justice system is basically just up to the judgement of the chief or leader of the tribe. Also, stage red is not necessarily  more violent than stage purple. Yes, they may be more cruel to their own people, but they are a little more thoughtful with killing. Usually when a red kills, it's because they want to gain power or territory or they have pleasure in doing so. Purple will basically kill people because they are outside of their tribe. Think of apache Indians, some of the more violent native American tribes. Stage red is basically trying to be stage orange, but they kill too much and don't respect the concept of stability in society enough.

[Roy]

While consciousness and expansion of concern does have some correlation with Spiral Dynamics, it is also a system that describes power and effectiveness of each stage in conquering the material world. Collective tribal society can be quite limiting, those straying from the group will be ostracized, and questioning tradition is taboo. These kind of social constraints hold back the potential of incredible individuals, who can see things the group can't and really just "know better". As @Akashic said above Red is more realistic, they will find things that simply work better, and a strong red leader will inspire others to follow them to help create and reap those results.

The history of the Roman Empire is a great example of Red/Blue emergence, they grew to annihilate and assimilate all the Purple tribes around them. Intelligent generals, leaders, etc. figured out more effective ways to organize societies and wage war.

Also keep in mind we tend to have quite a highly romanticized view of indigenous peoples because of the way liberalism has become mainstream culturally and in academia. Our ancestors did a lot of terrible things and we need to find ways to remedy that, but if you dig into the history of those cultures and their history too I'm sure it won't be hard to find equally terrible discoveries. First Nations, Natives, Indians, and Indigenous peoples all have their own toxic elements and disruptive ways of behaving.  Anywhere there is humans, you will find low conscious and corruption.

Let's say for a thought experiment the civilizations of North America advanced and organized faster than the Old World. It's likely if they had sea capable ships and gunpowder and came over to Europe or Africa, they would have done the same raping and pillaging too. Evolution is quite brutal and unforgiving.

 

 

[Carl-Richard]

You're essentially conflating femininity with higher development. Red is more complex, capable, ambitious, oppurtunistic and forward thinking than Purple. To break out of the mold of your ancestors and claim your own sense of identity, to see beyond the horizon and claim what you desire, to rally troops, to conquer; it's a step up in development.

[thibault]

I like to think of the SD stages from a game theory perspective. Purple is the first stage of the human game. We form groups and develop our way of interacting with each other. At this point the game plays out fine. The first problem arises when two groups like this bump into each other. If their way of life clashes with one another that leads to friction and conflict which decreases the outcome of the game for everyone. A new strategy is necessary. One day one person realizes that this friction and conflict is unresolvable unless someone steps up and takes control of all the different tribes, uniting them into a single group through conscious coercion. Purple is unconscious coercion, red is conscious coercion (remember this doesn't imply better or worse, just more conscious). The reason that it is more conscious is because now the coercion can be attributed to a single individual rather than being distributed in an obscure way throughout the group.

[SamC]

Purple is brutal but on a collective level. If you are not a part of the tribe, expect to get your throat slit.

[thibault]

This is the entire thing about consciousness. Pretty much the same thing is happening in purple and red, it's just that in red it's acknowledged whereas in purple it's not. Here's another way you could see the the stages :

Purple : Unconscious coercion

Red : Conscious coercion

Blue : Unconscious judgment

Orange : Conscious judgment

Green : Unconscious acceptance

Yellow : Conscious acceptance

In the same way you say red seems cruel in relation to purple, you could make the same argument that orange seems cruel relative to blue because now we are measuring people to judge them. The sort of judgment we are putting on them seems to have some sort of "objectivity" behind it, almost as if it was "final". At some point if you assume that developing consciousness is all flowers and rainbows then I suggest you look at history or just the animal kingdom that has not reached the same levels just to see the sheer brutality that was required to reach the levels we are at today.

No one who understands SD well would tell you consciousness is good or consciousness is bad. It is just our trajectory. Whatever judgment you put on it says more about how you see the world than what consciousness actually is.

[Carl-Richard]

@thibault

Purple: unite the tribe.

- problem: our tribe is expanding and our neighbors are bothering us.

Red: unite everyone under me.

- problem: constant war, chaos reigns, empires fall.

Blue: unite people under God.

- problem: not all people accept God, and people disagree about what God is.

Orange: unite people who are rational.

- problem: not all people are rational, and rational people disagree with each other.

Green: unite people who are not cruel.

- problem: cruel is subjective, and not all people are not cruel.

Tier 2: unite all people.

- problem: all of the above.

[thibault]

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

@thibault

Purple: unite the tribe.

- problem: our tribe is expanding and our neighbors are bothering us.

Red: unite everyone under me.

- problem: constant war, chaos reigns, empires fall.

Blue: unite people under God.

- problem: not all people accept God, and people disagree about what God is.

Orange: unite people who are rational.

- problem: not all people are rational, and rational people disagree with each other.

Green: unite people who are not cruel.

- problem: cruel is subjective, and not all people are not cruel.

Tier 2: unite all people.

I like this.

[Carl-Richard]

47 minutes ago, thibault said:

I like this.

?

And if you want a "problem" under Tier 2, it's all of the above ?

[Happy Lizard]

You have to see where purple turns bad/pathological to understand purple. purple is all romanticized until it throttle any effort to in-force modern laws.

I have some concrete examples:

1.superstitions, red revolts against this, doesn’t believe in the old ways, having to bow before elders, having to throw salt in the air and dance around it for what ever reason. Red revolts against magical thinking and start thinking more realistically.

2.you can’t marry a guy/girl from another -inferior- tribe, this is still the happens in some places like Saudi Arabia.

3.fude wars in southern Egypt (and else where) countless murders that last several generations. One person’s whole life could be wasted on escaping death, all for a trivial reason that could be over a dead cow that was killed by mistake. the reason this still continues to this day, is that purple tribes believe that this is only way to saddle it, and won’t give in to law makers.

4.kinship is everything, its not safe to leave your tripe. it’s essentially like leaving your religion in modern religious families; It’s so enmeshed in your identity such that leaving is like committing an unthinkable crime. 

5.Red sense of self is more advanced than purple, red have a strong sense of ‘i’ and is very self-empowered. Purple hasn’t moved to that level yet. Still thinks sees tribe as it’s identity. 

putting yourself in any of these examples can show you why it’s not desirable to be purple, and can make you appreciate/understand and favor red better.

a positive example of red in modern times that you can see in schools: kids have magical thinking in them, you know how kids tell scary stories about the kid that was killed in the back of the school ? -magical thinking- Red would be the hero kid that checks for him/her-self and shows the rest of the group thats there’s nothing to be afraid of 

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by Happy Lizard

[Jodistrict]

I don’t agree with Spiral Dynamics and its progress bias that puts “purple” on the lower end of a spiral.   Anthropologists say that the cultures of the indigenous tribal people were as sophisticated and complex as modern society.    Furthermore, their lifestyle is actually sustainable, unlike modern society which is unsustainable and threatening the very existence of the planet.  And the argument that they were primitive and violent is the weakest given all the people killed in World Wars I and II.   Also, people are generally happier when they are living in small communities and connected with each other.  And their animistic beliefs in the sacredness of nature are missing in the materialistic modern societies which see nature as a “resource” to be exploited.   Instead of a spiral, maybe there is a cycle from balanced to unbalanced to balanced.         

Edited May 4, 2022 by Jodistrict

[Carl-Richard]

Just now, Jodistrict said:

Furthermore, their lifestyle is actually sustainable, unlike modern society which is unsustainable and threatening the very existence of the planet.

It isn't sustainable, because we naturally evolved past it. That is what SD describes.

[Carl-Richard]

10 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

Instead of a spiral, maybe there is a cycle from balanced to unbalanced to balanced.         

Why is a cyclical model better than a spiral one?

[Jodistrict]

7 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Why is a cyclical model better than a spiral one?

An observation that the present modern society is terribly unbalanced and unsustainable.  People seek balance for their own stability and happiness.  

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, Jodistrict said:

An observation that the present modern society is terribly unbalanced and unsustainable.  People seek balance for their own stability and happiness.  

Pre-modernity is not separate from modernity. Given enough time, pre-modern tribes innovate new technology (like agriculture) and start growing past their local carrying capacity, culminating in modern society.

Modernity is also by definition more complex, because innovation produces new things, and more things interacting means more complexity. Development (societal, biological, psychological) can be defined as the movement from lesser to higher complexity. 

If you define development as something else, then it starts to be more synonymous with change instead of growth. A better word for a purely cyclical model would be dynamics. A cycle is a dynamic, a movement between dualities, but there is no growth.

[thisintegrated]

9 hours ago, Fearey said:

Purple is more than capable of violence. Much more so than red.

If a purple tribe were to consider other tribes as a threat to the survival of their own, they may very well start eradicating every human being upon contact, not belonging to their tribe. 

Purple will destroy anything and anyone for their own tribe.

Sure it's "capable" of violence, but what I was referring to was the fact that they will not think to use violence for personal gain.  Purples are like children, they do as they're told.  They're not long-term thinkers, and they're unaware of the possibility of gaining power.  That's why they're less aggressive than Reds.  

Edited May 4, 2022 by thisintegrated

[thisintegrated]

6 minutes ago, Fearey said:

The tribe is more or less the entire self identity of purple though. The one thing that matters more than anything to purple is their tribe. Even more so than themselves, but only because they haven't yet developed a sense of self.

Yeah.  They're just not aware enough to consider asserting dominance, and so they don't.  Although Reds are more aggressive, they're more advanced.

[thibault]

I think there is a huge mistake with spiral dynamics with people thinking that as you go up the levels you increase in morality. This is not at all what spiral dynamics describes. All it describes is the evolution of consciousness. What stages come first and what stages come next. In the same way we would find it ridiculous to say a fully grown tree is "better" than a sapling, stage yellow is not "better" than stage purple. It only describes the natural evolution of consciousness over time. Many people see this kind of model and intuit or assume that later/more developed stages imply higher moral character or some sort of objective "betterness". This is absolutely incorrect and false. In the same way we would say a plant starts as as a seed to a seedling to a sapling to maturity to a huge tree in the middle of a forest, spiral dynamics only describes natural growth of consciousness. There is absolutely no moral judgment behind it. Interpreting it in this way misses the entire point of the model.