Does each stage experience drugs differently?

[thisintegrated]

Whenever I hear of someone offering weed/acid to their Blue friend, the friend always has a negative experience and decides they hate drugs.

Oranges seem to view drugs as just a high, and smoking weed is seen as no different to smoking tobacco.  I think these may be the kinds of people that can get "addicted" to non-addictive drugs like weed.  

For Greens it seems to be a tool for spiritual work and getting closer to their true self or whatever.

And for Yellows drugs are mostly a tool for gaining new insights.

 

So if I tell a Blue I like acid and weed they'll think I'm mischievous, dangerous, unstable, etc.

If I tell an Orange they'll either think I'm cool, or a "druggie loser".

If I tell a Green they'll think I'm woke, like them.

If I tell a Yellow they'll just think I'm Yellow.

 

Has anyone else noticed anything like this?

Edited May 3, 2022 by thisintegrated

[Realms of Wonder]

Generally, yes. Interesting to see.

I could be wrong, but I like to think of psychedelics as a sort of elevator through the spiral, not for many, but for some, it can give a view of the vista of a new level/stage. 

Not for many though.

[Espaim]

I have noticed something similar. People on different spiral/ego development stages react differently when I tell how many drugs I've tried (the answer is yes). And it's still shocking to some how I'm not addicted to any of them.

And... I learned the hard way to never mention I've done any drug except alcohol to Stage Blue and below. But I think they intuitively know I'm not "pure" lol

Edited May 3, 2022 by Espaim

[SamC]

Yes. But it's not neccesarily the case. My spiral dynamics stage green mum wasn't that pleased that I tried LSD lol.

Be careful. Very few will understand why you do what you do.

 

[puporing]

Most people I talked to (outside this forum) who show an opening view psychedelics as something to help someone with mental health problems (depression, anxiety..etc), some see it as an escape/something fun to do. Rest are not receptive or see you/any "drug use" as dangerous.

Edited May 3, 2022 by puporing

[Happy Lizard]

@thisintegrated yeah very spot on, I noticed things like this

3 hours ago, thisintegrated said:

Oranges seem to view drugs as just a high, and smoking weed is seen as no different to smoking tobacco.  I think these may be the kinds of people that can get "addicted" to non-addictive drugs like weed.  

I knew a very stage orange guy on the verge of being green, used to take photographs of naked hippies. I urged him to  try acid or try weed ounce. At that point in his life he’s ‘good’ to try it. Told me literally: “I lived my whole life without  smoking a cigarette, and I won’t try weed either” < thinks it’s the same as tobacco.

3 hours ago, thisintegrated said:

So if I tell a Blue I like acid and weed they'll think I'm mischievous, dangerous, unstable, etc.

My experience is blue has little information/interstate in psychedelics:

1. basically thinks it’s dangerous, relies on the authority of what drug ads says about it on TV, and compartmentalize as such.
2. thinks it takes you to another world or their minds connects it with religious visions(Jesus, merry, buddha etc.)

3 hours ago, thisintegrated said:

If I tell a Green they'll think I'm woke, like them.

Green mentions it to challenge how woke you are.

I used to think that everyone should try it, and that it can solve all their problems…. So they can be green, like me! ?
 

My take form Spiral dynamics is that it’s more complicated than and can’t work that way as everyone one has different possibilities according to their level on the spiral.

 

what do red purple or beige experience them as? Baige-purple was the OG hippie? lol

Edited May 4, 2022 by Happy Lizard

[thisintegrated]

1 hour ago, Happy Lizard said:

what do red purple or beige experience them as? Baige-purple was the OG hippie? lol

I guess Purple might see it as magic.  Kinda how today in some cultures the "shaman" takes a "ritual drug" and starts getting "visions from the spirits".  Purple would just see it as spooky magical shit.  They wouldn't really be interested in trying anything themselves.

I know a Red who's into drugs.  They don't seem to take drugs seriously, as it doesn't contribute to gaining social status or anything.  It's just a resource, like money.  Many drugs = power, but that's it really.  Also, in some cultures Reds may see drug-use as weakness.

[Jodistrict]

Stage Orange uses the word “psychedelic”.
Stage Green says “entheogens”.
 

[thisintegrated]

19 hours ago, Jodistrict said:

Stage Orange uses the word “psychedelic”.
Stage Green says “entheogens”.
 

..and Yellow returns to using "psychedelic", realizing it's more logical to use well-established vocabulary, for the sake of communication ..but each to their own?

Edited May 4, 2022 by thisintegrated

[Jodistrict]

1 hour ago, thisintegrated said:

..and Yellow returns to using "psychedelic", realizing it's more logical to use well-established vocabulary, for the sake of communication ..but each to their own?

It's more about the connotation.  

https://doubleblindmag.com/what-does-entheogen-actually-mean/

[RobertZ]

Does each stage experience drugs differently? The question is closed-ended. The answer is either 'yes' or 'no.' However, I will take some liberty and take the question where it leads me.

 

What I call them

 

I prefer the name "hallucinogen" because a predominant effect of these substances, in my experience, is comprehensively thinking through thoughts. Etymologically, the word 'hallucination' means rumination, rather than the meaning the DSM picked up of experiencing something not there. Hallucinogens' predominant effects (for me), especially at high doses, involve accessing distant memories and maintaining a thread of thought for an unusually long time.

 

Physiological and Situational Responses to Drugs

 

I don't have a lot to say about the effects of drugs on people of different physiological makeups or the relationship between physiological differences and stages of psychological development.

 

I think a neuroscientist was comparing the effects of MDMA in terms of post-orgasmic physiological states when Joe Rogan joked, 'Well, I don't know what kind of orgasms you are having [if they are almost as good as MDMA].' But on the other hand, people often describe MDMA psychotherapy for PTSD, for example, as a challenging experience with many tears.

 

Psychedelic and quasi-psychedelic drugs can be very pleasurable, very uncomfortable or both—such as tears of laughter followed by hours of intense abdominal pain.

 

Spiral Dynamics in General

 

The central theory of Spiral Dynamics Integral is not about colours but a hypothesis that a person's environment affects their instincts; a person's instincts affect both their experience of perceptions of value.

 

People value things in different ways and for various reasons. Take a simple example: a woman who cherishes a piece of traditional family land because her father shed his blood protecting it from outsiders. Meanwhile, another person might value that same parcel of land for a very different reason. Likewise, almost everyone believes in this imaginary concept called money—but people think about money differently and spend it on various things. For example, one person might spend her dollar on drugs, but another person might spend his dollar imprisoning people who have drugs.

 

Spiral Dynamics Integral points out that our environment affects both priorities or the content of a person's values and the way a person thinks. For example, a person in a beige state—chronically lacking food, water, or shelter—perceives space in greater detail than a person with abundant subsistence resources. For example, a person in need sees blues, browns and silvers relatively more vividly.

 

Now, Nietzsche challenges the view that the instinct toward survival is fundamental. Instead, he suggests that the will to strength is more basic than the drive toward existence. All living things do not tend toward being but toward the will to strength.

 

This questioning of assumptions helped me review my interpretation of Spiral Dynamics Integral. Whatever our fundamental instinct might or might not be (and whatever resources or opportunities for adaptation might be available), environmental factors influence a person's priorities, ways of thinking, and perception experiences (of being a perceiver).

 

The thesis of spiral dynamics should appear less incredible to a person who has taken drugs--especially hallucinogens. Hallucinogens alter a person's perception of reality, so  there is little reason to rule out the possibility that a person's needs, desires, or perhaps will to strength could change their perception of reality solely because "perceptions cannot change."

 

Blue Value Memes

 

Blue value memes prioritize categorical principles, like the rule of law. The law must apply to all (the great and the small alike). Such categories provide stability. Ideas like bundles of property rights and national borders allow for higher virtues like generosity. 'There could be no exercise of generosity without contexts like property in resources.' Property is worth fighting and dying—not because of property, per se, but because of love. The use of categories and principles tends to be a very blue way of thinking.

 

Assumptions about authority underlie the a priori synthetic capacity to recognize truth. For example, 'I heard that 'good drugs' are good [in moderation] and ‘bad drugs’ are bad. I can recognize the truth. Therefore, I will damn myself if I take drugs.’

 

Blue and Drugs: Social Dogmas about "Good Drugs" and "Bad Drugs"

 

The needs of the species, rationality and subsistence dominate blue thought, and these communal needs inform blue perceptions, values, and thought.

 

For example, a person expressing blue value memes might find the following argument compelling–both intellectually and emotionally:

 

   Human beings have a rational faculty, and the perfection of our species’ existence means actualization in rationality.

  Inhibiting actualization (i.e., rational existence) misses the mark of being human.

  Drugs inhibit rational thought and action.

  Therefore, intoxication with drugs always misses the mark of acting in a fully human way.

 

Again, authority is a foundation of the blue recognition of the truth. For centuries, many Islamic teachers permitted the use of cannabis and hashish but frowned on alcohol. Meanwhile, on June 29, 1620, Licenciado D. Pedro Nabarre de Isla anathematized Peyote, emphasizing Satan's power to delude people into superstitious beliefs in the mechanical (and deceptive) foretelling of future events. Many blue-minded individuals condemn methamphetamine, for example, as being more toxic or physiologically habituating than alcohol. A blue-minded person says, 'Well, I heard that crystal meth is bad, m-kay? After all, we can’t all be psychotic meth-heads breaking and entering into the homes of law-abiding citizens.’

 

Authority provides stable structures for categories of subsistence, intelligence, and reproduction.

 

"Bad Drugs" Alter Blue Categories

 

Along come drugs and challenge a person's assumption that categories even apply to reality. This alternate perspective challenges perceptual integrity. A person's ability to recognize the truth appears far more tenuous and hypothetical than previously assumed. Drugs threaten stable health, and intellectual development—and for goodness’ sake, “WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN?”

 

A blue value meme's aversion to drugs makes good sense. Blue value memes promote categorical and principled thought. However, psychoactive drugs (especially hallucinogens) can open the possibility of thinking that logical categories might not apply to reality at all.

 

Here is an example of a blue person tripping on blue mushrooms, thinking, "Go and kill people for my "country"? You have got to be kidding! Hah hah hah hah! I can't stop laughing. I have never heard a more stupid idea in my life. Why would I die for an imaginary idea? Oh, water is coming out of my face because patriotism is so stupid." You have to be insane to believe that a country is real. Imagine those soldiers walking around on some line, not letting people in or out. Hah hah hah!   But wait—the military—oh no! My house. My family. My food. They are probably outside my home now, shelling at my house! NO! They are coming! [person vomits]."

 

Everyone values resources—whether for survival or some other reason. But the person in the above example is perplexed about social doctrines of property in resources, love for family, and an experience that such categories might serve their interests. Little wonder this person has a terrifying mushroom experience.

 

 

Edited May 6, 2022 by RobertZ

[Carl-Richard]

On 3.5.2022 at 10:45 PM, thisintegrated said:

I think these may be the kinds of people that can get "addicted" to non-addictive drugs like weed.

What makes you think weed is non-addictive?

[Asayake]

6 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

What makes you think weed is non-addictive?

Weed is not physically addicting, the addiction is in your mind clinging to weed to try to escape what is. Thoughts like "Today would suck hard/be pointless without some weed" appear and acting on those thoughts even though they're not true makes you keep using weed regularly. They make you addicted to weed even though it's not addictive by itself.

It's not like with cigarettes or opiates where you actually have a physical withdrawal that you can't deny even if you let go of thoughts. A weed withdrawal is just mental, it can give you physical symptoms by having negative thoughts about how horrible not smoking would be if you believe those thoughts, because those thoughts will feed your negative feelings with energy if you stay stuck in them. But if you can manage to let go of thoughts the withdrawal is non existent. What happens is people who become addicted to weed and stop smoking is that any negative feeling they have will be confirmed to be caused by quitting weed by their own thoughts and they will get stuck in a loop of feeding that negative feeling with their thoughts, thinking about how horrible it is to quit weed instead of processing their emotions, which in turn can cause symptoms like nausea, stored up anxiety, being utterly exhausted etc. At least this is how I understand it from my own experience.

That being said people can still be addicted to weed, it's just that the addiction is mental and there are so many things that can be mentally addicting. So I guess it depends on what one means by "non-addictive". It can certainly be psychologically addictive, that's for sure. But any psychological addiction can be let go of by connecting to the Now.

 

[Carl-Richard]

17 hours ago, Asayake said:

Weed is not physically addicting, the addiction is in your mind clinging to weed to try to escape what is. Thoughts like "Today would suck hard/be pointless without some weed" appear and acting on those thoughts even though they're not true makes you keep using weed regularly. They make you addicted to weed even though it's not addictive by itself.

This is an extremely common misunderstanding of pharmacology and addiction, which I've tried to clear this up in this post:

 

Quote

Most tobacco smokers have the correct factual information about the unhealthy aspects of smoking, so they'll use other beliefs to perpetuate their behavior. Arguably, the strongest meme in this regard is "I like it; it's relaxing." 

However, when it comes to less mainstream phenomena like weed culture, there is one super-strong meme that is based on a blatant misunderstanding of health: "weed is only mentally addictive." It's wrong on so many levels: it conflates dependence and addiction, it misunderstands what fundamentally drives addiction, and it wrongly assumes that mental side effects are somehow less important than physical side effects.

Dependence (and subsequent withdrawal) is very predictable and is something that everybody goes through after discontinuing drug use. It's essentially the process of re-calibrating back to the type of homeostasis that existed before initiating drug use. This process produces side effects that are qualitatively speaking the opposite effects of the drug. So if the drug produces physical side effects (e.g. constipation), you'll experience the opposite during withdrawal (diarrhea). If the mental effect is euphoria, then the withdrawal effect is dysphoria.

On the other hand, addiction as an overarching phenomena is not reducible to such symptoms. It rather has to do with a drastic change in behavior, psychology and overall life conditions. When it comes to drug cravings (arguably the driving force of drug addiction), the main factor is positive reinforcement, particularly evident in drugs that trigger the reward circuitry in various dopamine pathways (which cannabis does). Positive reinforcement is what makes you crave the specific drugs you've had experiences taking, not just any drug. Cravings may increase during withdrawal, but you can be in withdrawal without cravings (and vice versa).

Now, when you look at the symptoms of drug cravings, it's strictly speaking mental in nature. Cravings depend on thoughts, which are tied to previous drug experiences, and these thoughts (when unfulfilled) create feelings of mental distress. Therefore, the idea that "weed is only mentally addictive" is firstly, nonsensical, and secondly, a way to downplay weed addiction. All drug cravings, whether it's to opiates, amphetamines, cannabinoids or eating your sofa, are mental in nature. Saying it's all mental is not a way to downplay the problem.

 

[Asayake]

2 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

This is an extremely common misunderstanding of pharmacology and addiction, which I've tried to clear this up in this post:

 

 

I was mentally addicted to weed, smoked or vaped large quantities of it daily for months without being able to bring myself to quit and then suddenly quit it overnight without any physical symptoms, only drug cravings(mental, that I could let go of within a day and then I was sober). How is that possible? 

I have also quit weed after being addicted years back and gone through a very rough withdrawal filled with anxiety, insomnia and nausea that I believe in hindsight was actually just caused by the mental side effects(drug craving thoughts and thoughts about how life is pale without weed, thoughts about how I am addicted and should give up quitting and how quitting sucks and is hard that I believed in, which was feeding the negative emotions and causing my body to react physically and emotionally in a negative way). The difference was that I let go of thoughts the time where I didn't get any withdrawal(dysphoria, nausea, anxiety, insomnia or anything like this) after quitting.  

It's fully possible that I'm not using the clinically correct terminology here, I'm not formally educated in the matter. The reason I thought of it as mental addiction/physical addiction is because in my mind mental addiction causes mental side effects after quitting(thoughts that try to pull you back to using the drug). And physical addiction causes physical side effects that is unrelated to the mental symptoms of quitting(like migraines, physical pain, diarrhea). Letting go of thoughts might make opiate pains less horrible but they will still be there because the body is physically adapted to the opiates in a way which makes physical symptoms from quitting inevitable. This is not the case with weed, from my experience, the physical symptoms were not there for me when I handled the mental side of it differently. Drinking water is an addiction with both a physical and mental component(or in other words, both an addiction and a dependence). Quitting will cause thoughts like "if I don't drink soon I will die". Believing those thoughts will cause negative physical reaction in the body and feed negative emotions. But even when letting those thoughts go your body will still die and decay away without water. Hence drinking water is physically addictive(the body is dependent?) on water.

I think we actually probably agree on a lot of this and it's just largely a confusion of terminology.

Edited May 6, 2022 by Asayake

[Carl-Richard]

8 minutes ago, Asayake said:

I was mentally addicted to weed, smoked or vaped large quantities of it daily for months without being able to bring myself to quit and then suddenly quit it overnight without any physical symptoms, only drug cravings(mental, that I could let go of within a day and then I was sober). How is that possible? 

Physical withdrawals are actually not the worst parts of quitting a drug. It's the cravings. Some people liken the physical side of heroin withdrawal to a weak cold. Of course, some physical withdrawal symptoms are dangerous, which is why it's perceived as a serious thing.

Physical withdrawals from cannabis do exist, and I've experienced them myself (diarrhea, nausea, unable to eat food, stiff muscles, aches and pains). Stimulants like cocaine or meth have almost zero notable physical withdrawal symptoms, yet they're still perceived as being highly addictive.

 

18 minutes ago, Asayake said:

I have also quit weed after being addicted years back and gone through a very rough withdrawal filled with anxiety, insomnia and nausea that I believe in hindsight was actually just caused by the mental side effects(drug craving thoughts and thoughts about how life is pale without weed, thoughts about how I am addicted and should give up quitting and how quitting sucks and is hard that I believed in, which was feeding the negative emotions and causing my body to react physically and emotionally in a negative way). The difference was that I let go of thoughts the time where I didn't get any withdrawal(dysphoria, nausea, anxiety, insomnia or anything like this) after quitting.  

This is typical addiction, yes. Weed isn't particularly different from other hedonic drugs in this aspect. The mental-physical dichotomy that most people hold in their minds is very inaccurate and is based on an intuitive understanding rather than a scientific understanding of the topic.

 

25 minutes ago, Asayake said:

It's fully possible that I'm not using the clinically correct terminology here, I'm not formally educated in the matter. The reason I thought of it as mental addiction/physical addiction is because in my mind mental addiction causes mental side effects after quitting(thoughts that try to pull you back to using the drug). And physical addiction causes physical side effects that is unrelated to the mental symptoms of quitting(like migraines, physical pain, diarrhea).

The confusion around terminology is understandable, but it's a huge problem. It creates a harmful mentality around certain drugs and their addiction potential. The most important point is to distinguish between 1. withdrawal symptoms and 2. cravings. 

1. Withdrawal symptoms are related to dependence, which can be physical or mental.
2. Cravings are related to addiction, which is fundamentally mental.

There is of course overlap between these things, but it's the most accurate way (that I know about) of talking about these things.

[Carl-Richard]

29 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

There is of course overlap between these things, but it's the most accurate way (that I know about) of talking about these things.

To expand on this: cravings can be classified as a withdrawal symptom (as it tends to happen more frequently during withdrawal), but you also don't have to be in withdrawal to have cravings. You can for example take a hit of cocaine, feel the rush, and then want to have even more. Also, having cravings doesn't automatically mean you're addicted. It's only if the cravings are strong enough to cause a detrimental impact on your life.

So withdrawal symptoms seem to have a correlation with an increase in cravings, but they're also not fully dependent on each other, which means you can think of it like this:                                                     

Withdrawal symptoms  => Cravings => Addiction <= Cravings <= no withdrawal symptoms.

[thisintegrated]

17 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

What makes you think weed is non-addictive?

Basically what Asayake said.  I could smoke weed every day for a year and then quit completely and not even have cravings or anything.  It's less addictive than coffee.

[MsNobody]

@thisintegrated I would think stage orange uses drugs or even psychedelics in party settings, I think about Coachella and EDM or even Vegas to be very stage orange with all the pretty clothes, long nails, the superficiality etc. All those young people do use psychedelic drugs for recreation only. 

While stage green uses it mostly for spiritual purposes. 

I would be curious to know about Santo Daime and Uniao do Vegetal, those are churches who do use psychedelic for spiritual purposes but have strong blue values as their foundation. They do indeed have some green to it and some people even yellow but the blue is predominant.

I'm part of one and I get very bothered by the masculine mindset, women do not have the same rights as men (for example most of the ayahuasca session are directed by men) would be interesting to hear opinions of people here from the forum  

[Carl-Richard]

7 hours ago, thisintegrated said:

Basically what Asayake said.  I could smoke weed every day for a year and then quit completely and not even have cravings or anything.  It's less addictive than coffee.

Maybe for you. Not everybody gets addicted to drugs. The addiction rate for "hard drugs" is only a few percent higher than weed.