The Neurological Correlates of the Jhanas, and Experiencing Dopamine vs Serotonin

[softlyblossoming]

http://www.leighb.com/jhananeuro.htm

Many of you may find this helpful 

[Leo Gura]

Very good

[Flyboy]

Quite skeptical of this...  IME, Jhanas are the result of decreased mental friction and fabrication... much like lowering the resistance in a circuit.  As resistance goes down, an accelerating "superconducting" effect happens (which is why this isn't about effort, really, but the ability to relax into this while maintaining a guiding focus).  The peace and joy of Jhanas is probably similar to the Ketamine effect--it is sort of the way things are when you aren't making them otherwise.  Ascribing this to a causal relationship with neurotransmitters is quite reductionist, IMO.

[A_v_E]

sport & orgasm activate the opioid system.

just a reminder, thanks for this, life goal is indeed true happiness.

 

it's just a model, but it goes in the right direction

[Ninja_pig]

This is model is good, but it's oversimplified. The jobs of Dopamine and Serotonin are very complex and each one is very important for happiness. 

[The0Self]

7 hours ago, Flyboy said:

Quite skeptical of this...  IME, Jhanas are the result of decreased mental friction and fabrication... much like lowering the resistance in a circuit.  As resistance goes down, an accelerating "superconducting" effect happens (which is why this isn't about effort, really, but the ability to relax into this while maintaining a guiding focus).  The peace and joy of Jhanas is probably similar to the Ketamine effect--it is sort of the way things are when you aren't making them otherwise.  Ascribing this to a causal relationship with neurotransmitters is quite reductionist, IMO.

Very much same here. I could totally be wrong though, relatively speaking, just assuming for the purpose of structure (in order to communicate anything) that neurochemistry means anything at all. Also, I'm rather surprised that someone as proficient in Jhanas as Leigh Brasington would have this view. Jhana's very clearly go utterly way beyond mere chemicals in a brain.

[A_v_E]

@The0Self "chemicals" is god way of doing things.

whatever how you name them, whatever the models.
yes there is "brain" and yes there is "chemicals"

what else could it be, it's good to say something is wrong, but you need to back up your critics with something. Only another theory deny a theory.

of course it doesn't represent the whole map, but it sounds quite a good one to start with.

Edited May 4, 2022 by A_v_E

[The0Self]

23 minutes ago, A_v_E said:

@The0Self "chemicals" is god way of doing things.

whatever how you name them, whatever the models.
yes there is "brain" and yes there is "chemicals"

what else could it be, it's good to say something is wrong, but you need to back up your critics with something. Only another theory deny a theory.

of course it doesn't represent the whole map, but it sounds quite a good to start with.

I get what you're saying, but I really mean something else. Flyboy's comment just resonated and that's the only reason I commented. I'll concede that the first two Jhanas (maybe 3, even 4) might at least have something to do with chemicals (which come to think of it is not really refuting anything Leight says actually), but as for the later ones? Really to me it's just not even a question at that point.

But yeah, in a sense? Sure, makes sense to me. Just looked at the article more closely rather than just glancing. Guess it wasn't really mentioning the later ones. Still though there's something fishy about it that I can easily see but there's no way to relay that information, you'd have to practice the jhanas.

Edited May 4, 2022 by The0Self

[thisintegrated]

Then how can I generate a dopamine high "above the neck"?  It's distinctly dopamine, and definitely above the neck.

 

I'll add.. all emotions are felt in the body, most in the head.  If I help someone and feel good from it, the feeling is in a specific location within the head.  I can amplify it, or even generate it without any trigger.

Edited May 4, 2022 by thisintegrated

[The0Self]

3 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Then how can I generate a dopamine high "above the neck"?  It's distinctly dopamine, and I can generate it on command.

 

I'll add.. all emotions are felt in the body, most in the head.  If I help someone and feel good from it, the feeling is in a specific location within the head.  I can amplify it, or even generate it without any trigger.

Not saying anything that you're refuting is true; you may be right to be skeptical. But as an aside: Consider the possibility that you have no idea whether you can match a physical objective chemical to a consciously felt emotional or hedonic state. And also the possibility (which I'm not saying you don't already maybe agree with) that where you feel an emotion in your physical body has nothing to do with the type of feeling felt.

[thisintegrated]

3 minutes ago, The0Self said:

Not saying anything that you're refuting is true; you may be right to be skeptical. But as an aside: Consider the possibility that you have no idea whether you can match a physical objective chemical to a consciously felt emotional or hedonic state. And also the possibility (which I'm not saying you don't already maybe agree with) that where you feel an emotion in your physical body has nothing to do with the type of feeling felt.

I know what dopamine feels like.  I get dopamine rushes every day.  It's pretty easy to identify.

[The0Self]

Just now, thisintegrated said:

I know what dopamine feels like.  I get dopamine rushes every day.  It's pretty easy to identify.

The no-doubt, distinctive and very recognizable, "dopamine rush" you describe might have absolutely nothing to do with the chemical dopamine. That is a rather wide open assumption.

[thisintegrated]

30 minutes ago, The0Self said:

The no-doubt, distinctive and very recognizable, "dopamine rush" you describe might have absolutely nothing to do with the chemical dopamine. That is a rather wide open assumption.

..it's literally the same feeling that amphetamine gives you, and amphetamine = dopamine.  If there was a theoretically "best" way of learning what dopamine feels like, it would be by taking amphetamine.

I can tell when dopamine is high, and when it's low.  It's not just the high, but other factors I can pay attention to as well.  The high is just an unmistakable side-effect of elevated dopamine levels.  Though, I don't think a high is possible without the dopamine.. dopamine is like a form of energy.  Too tired = can't concentrate and can't feel high.  The more dopamine I have available, the easier it is to generate the high.

Edited May 4, 2022 by thisintegrated

[The0Self]

12 hours ago, thisintegrated said:

..it's literally the same feeling that amphetamine gives you, and amphetamine = dopamine.  If there was a theoretically "best" way of learning what dopamine feels like, it would be by taking amphetamine.

I can tell when dopamine is high, and when it's low.  It's not just the high, but other factors I can pay attention to as well.  The high is just an unmistakable side-effect of elevated dopamine levels.  Though, I don't think a high is possible without the dopamine.. dopamine is like a form of energy.  Too tired = can't concentrate and can't feel high.  The more dopamine I have available, the easier it is to generate the high.

If you can't see this is an assumption I don't think I'll be able to convince your otherwise.

[The0Self]

The thing is, I have taken drugs that maximize the release and activity of the chemical systems in question. Heroin, cocaine, etc. And at their absolute peak they are really just nowhere near as intense as Jhanas. So while these neurological correlates may be correct, there's something else going on that has far more to do with steadiness, openness, insight and identity (in a sense), and lack of fabrication... more so than chemicals. But apart from that... yeah, sounds about right.

Edited May 4, 2022 by The0Self

[Flyboy]

2 hours ago, The0Self said:

And at their absolute peak they are really just nowhere near as intense as Jhanas

Wow, I gotta step up my game  

[thisintegrated]

3 hours ago, The0Self said:

The thing is, I have taken drugs that maximize the release and activity of the chemical systems in question. Heroin, cocaine, etc. And at their absolute peak they are really just nowhere near as intense as Jhanas. So while these neurological correlates may be correct, there's something else going on that has far more to do with steadiness, openness, insight and identity (in a sense), and lack of fabrication... more so than chemicals. But apart from that... yeah, sounds about right.

Have you considered the possibility that the reason these "Jhanas" feel good is because of the chemicals the state releases in the brain?

Meditation has been proven to stimulate the release of dopamine.  This is why meditation can be so blissful, it's the chemicals.

Now, of course, the chemicals, and the brain itself, aren't real, and the sensations have no cause, they just are.  But reality still follows physical logic, and all feelings have some physical source that "in theory" is what's responsible for the sensation.  For the game to make sense it has to be self-sustaining.  You can't have ~100% of physics be logical, and then have emotions be some mystical force with no real world explanation.  Within the frame of our physical reality, everything makes sense and has a physical explanation.

Edited May 4, 2022 by thisintegrated

[The0Self]

11 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Have you considered the possibility that the reason these "Jhanas" feel good is because of the chemicals the state releases in the brain?

Meditation has been proven to stimulate the release of dopamine.  This is why meditation can be so blissful, it's the chemicals.

Now, of course the chemicals, and the brain itself, aren't real, and the sensations have no cause, they just are.  But reality still follows physical logic, and all feelings have some physical source that "in theory" is what's responsible for the sensation.

As I alluded to in my comment that you responded to: heroin even at near-OD, though it shares similarities, doesn't feel anything near 3rd Jhana even though opioid receptors are maximally stimulated. IV cocaine, though it shares similarities, doesn't feel anything near 2nd jhana even though dopamine and serotonin receptors are maximally stimulated (edit: maybe it would sort of match a very light 2nd jhana, but for me it's never light; if I'm in jhana I get absorbed hard and it gets I would say literally 5-10 times stronger than cocaine/MDMA and that's being extremely conservative, though it's been like 5 years since I last used cocaine so idk). If anything it has far more to do with opening up to cosmic infinite love (through profound non-resistance) than chemicals -- but it's clear that it's not even that, I just can't describe it to you, because it's indescribable. Not saying chemicals don't play a very significant role.

Edited May 4, 2022 by The0Self

[thisintegrated]

1 minute ago, The0Self said:

As I alluded to in my comment that you responded to: heroin even at near-OD, though it shares similarities, doesn't feel anything near 3rd Jhana even though opioid receptors are maximally stimulated. IV cocaine, though it shares similarities, doesn't feel anything near 2nd jhana even though dopamine and serotonin receptors are maximally stimulated. If anything it has far more to do with opening up to cosmic infinite love (through profound non-resistance) than chemicals. Not saying chemicals don't play a very significant role.

Heroin is very far from the theoretical "best" drug that is possible to create.  Contemporary chemistry is still in the dark ages, and I have no doubt in 1000 years we'll have drugs many times more powerful.  So what we have available today shouldn't be used as a benchmark for what's possible, in terms of chemically induced highs.

[The0Self]

3 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Heroin is very far from the theoretical "best" drug that is possible to create.  Contemporary chemistry is still in the dark ages, and I have no doubt in 1000 years we'll have drugs many times more powerful.  So what we have available today shouldn't be used as a benchmark for what's possible, in terms of chemically induced highs.

Oh no doubt. 5-MeO-DMT can induce states of serenity and intensity way more powerful than heroin (even IV H combined with cocaine; yes I was indeed an addict) and even 2nd jhana.

Edited May 4, 2022 by The0Self