Is a lesbian transphobic if she does not want to have sex with trans women?

[Raptorsin7]

1 minute ago, zurew said:

Also you have this assumption baked into your argument that people the reason why people are attracted to certain traits and things is because of societal and cultural examples. I don't agree with that.

I think that attraction comes from the combination of societal things and also from biology. I would put more weight on the biology part. Thats why i don't think you can change what you are attracted to.

Attraction can be influenced by culture, conditioning, etc imo. 

Pedophiles are a good example. I believe pedophiles can transcend their sexual attraction to children. But i guess you are assuming it's primarily biology and they are stuck with that trait?

[bloomer]

@zurew

2 minutes ago, zurew said:

I don't think its discriminatory if i am not attracted towards certain people. If i am straight is it discriminatory that i am not attracted to men? If we want to use the word 'discriminatory' that vague then it will lose its meaning.

It is discriminatory and you have the right to discriminate with the people you have sex with, this should not be controversial. 

3 minutes ago, zurew said:

biological traits

Just say vagina stop using a euphemism. What you're saying is that people are attracted to bodies and not personalities or what people say they are. 

Just now, zurew said:

I think that attraction comes from the combination of societal things and also from biology.

So is your attraction to "biological traits" a result of society?

 

[zurew]

1 minute ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Pedophiles are a good example. I believe pedophiles can transcend their sexual attraction to children. But i guess you are assuming it's primarily biology and they are stuck with that trait?

Yes,i do. I wanted to talk about pedohiles too, to bring up a point about this discussion. 

Think about it, if pedophilia would be mostly or only influenced by culture, conditioning .. Then why there are pedohiles at all, especially nowadays, where pedohiles considered the worst of the worst in society. All pedophiles are fearing for their lifes when they are caught because of societal pressure, and because what will come towards them when they go to jail.

All society coding into everyone do not be pedohiles, and pedhilia is gross and wrong and evil. So why would there be then so many pedohiles then if it is only or mostly comes from culture and society?

[zurew]

3 minutes ago, bloomer said:

So is your attraction to "biological traits" a result of society?

Thats a deep question, and i think none of us knows the answer for that one, but we can make arguments and assumptions on both sides.

I write you down my argument about pedohiles, which is about why i don't think attraction mostly comes from culture, but more from biology:

2 minutes ago, zurew said:

Think about it, if pedophilia would be mostly or only influenced by culture, conditioning .. Then why there are pedohiles at all, especially nowadays, where pedohiles considered the worst of the worst in society. All pedophiles are fearing for their lifes when they are caught because of societal pressure, and because what will come towards them when they go to jail.

All society coding into everyone do not be pedohiles, and pedhilia is gross and wrong and evil. So why would there be then so many pedohiles then if it is only or mostly comes from culture and society?

But at the end of the day none of us knows how attraction works and where it comes from.

My belief is that it mostly comes from biology

[Raptorsin7]

Just now, zurew said:

Yes,i do. I wanted to talk about pedohiles too, to bring up a point about this discussion. 

Think about it, if pedophilia would be mostly or only influenced by culture, conditioning .. Then why there are pedohiles at all, especially nowadays, where pedohiles considered the worst of the worst in society. All pedophiles are fearing for their lifes when they are caught because of societal pressure, and because what will come towards them when they go to jail.

All society coding into everyone do not be pedohiles, and pedhilia is gross and wrong and evil. So why would there be then so many pedohiles then if it is only or mostly comes from culture and society?

My point is it can be transcended, not that the urges do not exist.

There's a lesson in ACIM (A course in miracles) that states "there is nothing my holiness cannot do". I would feel sad for a pedophile who held your view about their sexual orientation.

 

[zurew]

6 minutes ago, bloomer said:

What you're saying is that people are attracted to bodies and not personalities or what people say they are. 

I think mostly yes, but i can only talk about myself. I don't know what other people are attracted to, i am obviously assuming here and projecting my own situation out.

[bloomer]

@zurew

Just now, zurew said:

But at the end of the day none of us knows how attraction works and where it comes from.

My belief is that it mostly comes from biology

My belief is attraction is an inherent biological drive so that people can procreate. The desires that get passed on are the desires that are the norm. Desires that don't lead to copulation are mutations that typically get selected out of the gene pool. Desires that keep appearing in some way are consistent mutations that must serve some evolutionary function. We understand how attraction works and it comes from evolutionary process.

What we don't know is why we evolve and why we want to procreate and make more of ourselves. That's an alien force that governs all human and animal actions beyond us and perhaps beyond our comprehension. People can call it god or whatever but it exists and it's why we are what we are.  

[zurew]

3 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

There's a lesson in ACIM (A course in miracles) that states "there is nothing my holiness cannot do". I would feel sad for a pedophile who held your view about their sexual orientation.

Maybe it can be transcended, but i haven't seen any people that could do that, that does not mean it isn't possible. You don't need to feel sad for those people because there are solutions to this problem even if we assume that it can't be fully transcended.

[Raptorsin7]

Just now, zurew said:

Maybe it can be transcended, but i haven't seen any people that could do that, that does not mean it isn't possible. You don't need to feel sad for those people because there are solutions to this problem even if we assume that it can't be fully transcended.

I don't feel sorry for them because I'm almost certain that your view isn't true.

[zurew]

2 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

I don't feel sorry for them because I'm almost certain that your view isn't true.

Okay, so how do you explain gay people, and trans people in society, if it mostly or only comes from culture, and society and not from biology?

 

Btw just to mention your argument will hurt gay people here. Most stage blue people use the same argument that gayness is just comes from society and thats why they need to be banned, beacuse they will destroy culture and society and people will stop procreating.

If you use the biology argument, that it comes from biology, then you are arguing in favor of gay people.

Edited April 28, 2022 by zurew

[gettoefl]

i uphold a transwoman to be a woman and i also uphold a person's right to prefer non-transwomen as partners just like some can prefer brunette's over blonde's

and all women are equal to other women in terms of rights but not in terms of attraction ... rights are objective, attraction is subjective

[zurew]

1 minute ago, gettoefl said:

and all women are equal to other women in terms of rights but not in terms of attraction ... rights are objective, attraction is subjective

100% agree.

[Raptorsin7]

6 minutes ago, zurew said:

Okay, so how do you explain gay people, and trans people in society, if it mostly or only comes from culture, and society and not from biology?

I've always wondered where are the gay and transgender Christ's in society. I think most people are spirituality/emotionally unhealthy, and a culture that presents that identifying as transgender as a completely normal and healthy expression is just a byproduct of this unhealthiness.

If someone can show me a gay or transgender Buddha or Christ I would probably change my view. 

Edited April 28, 2022 by Raptorsin7

[bloomer]

@gettoefl

8 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

i uphold a transwoman to be a woman

What is a woman? 

[Epikur]

So let us say a transwomen trickt a lesbian to sleep with her. But the lesbian thought the transwomen is a biological women and she is against sleeping with transwomen. What should the law do about it?

Next things would be race in that context.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Epikur

[bloomer]

@Epikur

Just now, Epikur said:

What should the law do about it?

Nothing the woman consented to sex with transbian. There's no such thing as retroactively rescinded consent no matter what the me too crowd says. Do you think if a transwoman "tricked" a man into having sex with her that that transwoman should be punished? 

[Epikur]

@bloomer @Knowledge Hoarder

 

Quote

Rape by deception is a situation in which the perpetrator obtains the victim's agreement to engage in sexual intercourse or other sex acts, but gains it by deception, such as false statements or actions, including leading the target into illusory perceptions in order to get sex.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_deception

[gettoefl]

1 hour ago, bloomer said:

@gettoefl

What is a woman? 

birth certificate

[Arcangelo]

On 4/28/2022 at 7:22 AM, Bojan V said:

What is your purpose with this post? What are you trying to say?

LOL!

[eggopm3]

On 4/28/2022 at 8:57 AM, Raptorsin7 said:

I've always wondered where are the gay and transgender Christ's in society. I think most people are spirituality/emotionally unhealthy, and a culture that presents that identifying as transgender as a completely normal and healthy expression is just a byproduct of this unhealthiness.

If someone can show me a gay or transgender Buddha or Christ I would probably change my view. 

I think that there always have been gender-non conforming people throughout history, but the expression of this would be affected by the developmental stage of the era. The idea of a transgender person (or even a gay person to a lesser extent) as we understand it today didnt even exist in the possibility space for people until roughly the 20th century. these ideas have only really taken hold in mainstream culture with the increasing dominance of green. 

I agree that gender and sexuality can be transcended because doing so allowed me to work though gender issues I struggled with years ago, but most people aren't going to do that for the same reasons most people don't do spiritual work, so it's not a very helpful thing to point out to most people. the view "transcending your gender/sexuality is possible" could also be misinterpreted as "pray the gay away", which is not going to help mutual understanding in the slightest.