Why Self-Realization did not make me a Good & Pious Human Being?

[TRUTHWITHCAPITALT]

 Live the conscious life.

Choose it. Be it.

[Muhammad Jawad]

On 4/30/2022 at 9:56 AM, BipolarGrowth said:

It is a hypothetical question meant to highlight the irony behind viewing Self-Realization as a means to maximize the status and influence of the illusory and impermanent individual character commonly called the self/ego

Right. Thanks

[Muhammad Jawad]

On 4/30/2022 at 11:24 AM, Chrisd said:

Muhammad Jawad,

Sounds to me like you need to permanently realize yourself as beyond suffering

I don't look for permanent solutions because I don't think they exist

Ok. Right...

[Muhammad Jawad]

On 4/30/2022 at 6:45 PM, Aaron p said:

@Muhammad Jawad i struggled with the exact same thing bro. My studies on this matter arent finalized yet but here are a few of my findings.

Hurt people, hurt people. Pain breeds pain. And if your going through the process of awakening, your pain will get worse before it gets better. Which means, in the short term, a person pursuing awaking may actually be a worse person morally, psychologically etc before it births peace and moral uprightness. 

From what i can tell...ultimately all immorality comes from a lack of consciousness theoretically. In this regard im referring to the elements of consciousness responsible for 1: informed and contextualized knowledge on how certain actions activate short or long chains of events that lead to other people being hurt, and 2: the understanding that hurting people is not necessary or good (because they are the same as you, and you dont deserve to be hurt.)

 

here is a key insight: you will not become enlightened easily by simply being more moral and morality is not an effective way to go about trying to get enlightened.

This is a problem in Christianity called "good works". Which comes first? Love or good works. Which one stimulates the other? Good works can stimulate small degrees of love, but it is love that stimulates any and all forms of good works. The problem is that people see this and then just do good works thinking they're filled with love/god. Truthfully, morality doesent have very much to do with salvation/awakening at all...other than the fact that it is (and can only ever authentically be) an accidental byproduct of your awakening practices. However this does not mean that you cannot be moral and on the path to enlightenment...another key here is that you can be moral if you want, but authentic morality only exists when there is absolutely no reward for it whatsoever...when the only motivation is simply because it feels good...because you want to be moral for no reason at all...because you love.

 

Ephesians 2:8-9

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast."

Thanks a lot for your perspective on this matter. 

That really makes sense.

[Muhammad Jawad]

On 5/2/2022 at 10:31 AM, TRUTHWITHCAPITALT said:

 Live the conscious life.

Choose it. Be it.

Sure. Thanks

[Chrisd]

In an infinite universe, how are you going to get a permanent solution to the question whether or not there's a hell forever?

Edited May 3, 2022 by Chrisd

[seriousman24]

As far as I think I've understood so far @Chrisd it's as simple as because us,we,life,death you and I don't want even a temporary hell.

[The0Self]

"Why?" just wouldn't be in the cards, my friend.

If it is "seen" (don't have a better word), it's like "oh THAT'S why it's impossible to describe liberation..." I wouldn't even say it's because it's too close, and it's certainly not complicated, it's not even possible to describe why it's indescribable -- "too simple" perhaps gets closest as to why (except it's not even that). There's basically no "it," and yet it's indescribably different from how it (seemingly) was before (edit: underlined because this really is a mind-blowing paradox...).

This attempt at a description doesn't even touch it (and is, I must say, pointless)... but it's almost like everything is exactly the same but with no one home and no separation between anything (or things to be separate from) and no one making stuff happen -- just boundlessness. And miraculously, even choices happen on their own as they always do.

It's already right here closer than close, too close to see, but an intuition might clearly see it, or it might not yet. If seen, you simply turn towards that, without even trying to (in fact if there's a lot of resistance and fear, you'll inevitably try not to).

Any description is no more or less conceptual a description than any other, and therefore falls flat in describing the absolutely indescribable intimacy of this.

Edited May 4, 2022 by The0Self

[Muhammad Jawad]

14 hours ago, Chrisd said:

In an infinite universe, how are you going to get a permanent solution to the question whether or not there's a hell forever?

True

3 hours ago, seriousman24 said:

As far as I think I've understood so far @Chrisd it's as simple as because us,we,life,death you and I don't want even a temporary hell.

True.

1 hour ago, The0Self said:

"Why?" just wouldn't be in the cards, my friend.

If it is "seen" (don't have a better word), it's like "oh THAT'S why it's impossible to describe liberation..." I wouldn't even say it's because it's too close, and it's certainly not complicated, it's not even possible to describe why it's indescribable -- "too simple" perhaps gets closest as to why (except it's not even that). There's basically no "it," and yet it's indescribably different from how it (seemingly) was before (edit: underlined because this really is a mind-blowing paradox...).

This attempt at a description doesn't even touch it (and is, I must say, pointless)... but it's almost like everything is exactly the same but with no one home and no separation between anything (or things to be separate from) and no one making stuff happen -- just boundlessness. And miraculously, even choices happen on their own as they always do.

It's already right here closer than close, too close to see, but an intuition might clearly see it, or it might not yet. If seen, you simply turn towards that, without even trying to (in fact if there's a lot of resistance and fear, you'll inevitably try not to).

Any description is no more or less conceptual a description than any other, and therefore falls flat in describing the absolutely indescribable intimacy of this.

Exactly. Thanks

[JuliusCaesar]

Good and evil are human concepts, all that is exists equally with/without purpose.

 

Also, the Self is whatever it permits itself to become. If you aren't pleased with your current self, then simply change yourself.

[Breakingthewall]

@Muhammad Jawad i would say that you come from an extremely repressive tradition for your country and family. you have educated yourself in obligation and obedience. You are far from who you really are. Something in you has pushed you to go further. you are a pioneer, an adventurer. You have done mushrooms several times, you have searched for infinity, to God. has terrified you with lack of form. your being has opened to the void. you will never be the same. a progressive change has begun in you. the old structures collapse, the chains loosen. an anarchic being arises in you, wild for having been trapped, imprisoned. you don't know that being, you don't know what his inclinations are. you are also bound by strong family ties, forged before you were free, and your conscience completely forbids you to break them. marriage, children. your path is extremely difficult. you have to keep some commitments and at the same time free yourself. you have to be an artist, an innovator, a pioneer. Break all the limits, dare to everything, but same time keep the balance. Can you?  It's a big thing but not impossible. you are a human, a race of geniuses. good luck and enjoy the adventure

Edited May 4, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[Muhammad Jawad]

15 hours ago, JuliusCaesar said:

Good and evil are human concepts, all that is exists equally with/without purpose.

 

Also, the Self is whatever it permits itself to become. If you aren't pleased with your current self, then simply change yourself.

Right. Thanks 

[Muhammad Jawad]

9 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

i would say that you come from an extremely repressive tradition for your country and family. you have educated yourself in obligation and obedience.

True

9 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

You are far from who you really are. Something in you has pushed you to go further.

Exactly

9 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

you are a pioneer, an adventurer. You have done mushrooms several times, you have searched for infinity, to God. has terrified you with lack of form. your being has opened to the void.

Yes, True.

9 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

you will never be the same. a progressive change has begun in you. the old structures collapse, the chains loosen. an anarchic being arises in you, wild for having been trapped, imprisoned.

Right...

9 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

you don't know that being, you don't know what his inclinations are. you are also bound by strong family ties, forged before you were free, and your conscience completely forbids you to break them.

True

9 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

marriage, children. your path is extremely difficult. you have to keep some commitments and at the same time free yourself.

Ok

9 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

you have to be an artist, an innovator, a pioneer. Break all the limits, dare to everything, but same time keep the balance. Can you?

I am trying my best

9 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

It's a big thing but not impossible. you are a human, a race of geniuses. good luck and enjoy the adventure

Sure.

 

Thanks a lot 

[Kalki Avatar]

Sht. How did you got realized without being changed. You still have a detached ego?

In the past, the spirituality I did was just burning all karma until nothing remains. Ofcourse my behaviour changed drastically. I was like a virgin saint everyone wanted to get something out of. Hardest moments of my life. 

[WelcometoReality]

On 2022-04-28 at 6:43 AM, Muhammad Jawad said:

I can not see any positive change in my character instead it's the opposite. I am becoming a bad person because due to self-realization all of the mental filters are removed. Now I am acting out of the freedom that is making me, even more, the salve of my own feelings, emotions, and urges.

I am not able to control myself, I am not able to abstain myself from wrongdoings, and I have lost my free will because there is no separate "I" anymore to control my life.

The realization is not the end. If you want to go deeper you can start doing emotional work. I recommend just sitting with those feelings and let go of doing anything about them. Just feeling them fully is enough for them to dissolve and at the same time develop equanimity to them.

[Muhammad Jawad]

On 5/6/2022 at 8:38 PM, Kalki Avatar said:

How did you got realized without being changed.

"I" did not get realized. "I" the separate self is just seen through as an illusion like a mirage in a desert and concluded that there is no separate self.  here. This realization just appeared for this whole Life but not for any separate self because there is not any separate self.

On 5/6/2022 at 8:38 PM, Kalki Avatar said:

How did you got realized without being changed.

Not Sure. I am also surprised to see that.

On 5/6/2022 at 8:38 PM, Kalki Avatar said:

You still have a detached ego?

Here is no "me" a separate self. Here is not an ego. Here is just This/Life/Wholeness/What is/Awareness.

On 5/6/2022 at 8:38 PM, Kalki Avatar said:

In the past, the spirituality I did was just burning all karma until nothing remains. Ofcourse my behaviour changed drastically. I was like a virgin saint everyone wanted to get something out of. Hardest moments of my life. 

How you were burning your karmas? 

On 5/6/2022 at 8:38 PM, Kalki Avatar said:

Ofcourse my behaviour changed drastically.

 How?

On 5/6/2022 at 8:38 PM, Kalki Avatar said:

I was like a virgin saint everyone wanted to get something out of. Hardest moments of my life. 

Wao

[Muhammad Jawad]

23 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

The realization is not the end.

Ok

23 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

If you want to go deeper you can start doing emotional work.

How

23 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

I recommend just sitting with those feelings and let go of doing anything about them.

How? Those feeling are too powerful and I can not stop myself from the action when they are pushing me toward performing those actions.

23 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

Just feeling them fully is enough for them to dissolve and at the same time develop equanimity to them.

I will surely try to do that.

 

Thanks a lot  

[WelcometoReality]

3 hours ago, Muhammad Jawad said:

How? Those feeling are too powerful and I can not stop myself from the action when they are pushing me toward performing those actions.

Yeah, it's like that in the beginning. All those repressed emotions coming up without an identity structure holding them down. I remember my confusion about it, it was so much uncontrollable anger. Completely contradictory to my belief of what an awakening would bring.

[The0Self]

Of note: The most compassionate and heart-centered beings tend not to talk about compassion.

[Muhammad Jawad]

21 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

Yeah, it's like that in the beginning. All those repressed emotions coming up without an identity structure holding them down. I remember my confusion about it, it was so much uncontrollable anger. Completely contradictory to my belief of what an awakening would bring.

Right. Thanks

17 hours ago, The0Self said:

Of note: The most compassionate and heart-centered beings tend not to talk about compassion.

Ok