Long-term Meditation is Crap: Why would anyone want to stop thinking?

[r0ckyreed]

9 hours ago, aurum said:

But at the same time, there definitely has been tremendous benefit for me in learning to silence the mind at times. Otherwise you just drive yourself crazy with anxiety. There’s no space. Form needs balance with formlessness.

In terms of creativity, I find they go hand in hand. Yes, you need thought for creativity. But no, excessive thinking also does not help. Excessive thinking usually blocks creativity cause you’re too anxious.

I agree! Appreciate your insights.

3 hours ago, Chrisd said:

If you don't think you can function without thinking, I wouldn't attempt to silence the mind.

Yeah. I want to learn more how I can function with a silent mind. This is a growing area for me for sure.

[Gesundheit2]

I'll meditate on this and contemplate, and then I may give my answer.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, r0ckyreed said:

The 5 main things that I really want are:

1. Spirituality

A. Gain the highest wisdom and levels of understanding possible through natural means at this point (no psychedelics right now). In addition, I want a deep spiritual connection to reality such that I see infinite beauty even in a dog turd.

B. This means I need to carve more time to be in solitude to contemplate and meditate. My goal is at least one solid hour during the week days to go for nature walks, bring a journal, and contemplate.

2. Education

A. Gain highest knowledge I can about life. Become life-long learner, which means to read a lot of books, personal research/study, and writing, journaling and reflection.

B. This means I need to let go of or spend less time on video games, movies, media, and technology in general.

3. Health

A. Being able to attain the greatest fitness, health, and strength possible. 
 

B. This means to maintain a good diet and cut out the junk food I eat. This also means exercising more often. 

4. Career

A. Having a career that is alignment with my spirit and life calling. I want my career, life calling, etc. to be centered around my contribution to nature. I want to work and be active outdoors and not be inactive indoors in some office.

5. Financial freedom

A. Being able to have “enough” money to where I can have the freedom to not worry about money and be able to have the freedom to travel.

Thanks so much. I have a better idea of what I need to do now! I got a lot of work to do lol. I guess meditation will be my guide to not be so overwhelmed with what I want to accomplish.  

Really good

[Happy Lizard]

look at it in as integral part of a whole that is your health. meditation isn't going to give you all your health/goals, it's just going to help you put on a better health if you take it as a part of a whole. for example, you don't just wear shoes and go out in the street naked, in order to have an appropriate clothing you need  shoes, a shirt and pants. you can can choose the length look and style based on what you like but the tree parts are necessary. 

meditation is kind of like shoes, the modern world are running out with a shirt(career) and pants(say physical exercise or diet etc) but are missing a good shoe to protect their feet. it's just that some folks makes it all about the shoes(meditations). 

[yetineti]

Thinking effects almost, if not, everything we do.

So we must, at least, agree it is important.

Now, if we imagine trying to develop any skill, you need to practice it enough to get good but not too much that you get caught up in it.

Thinking is the same way. You will not get better at thinking if you do it all of the time and it is not an easy thing to stop or untangle for the rest of your life.

So you must take breaks and even learn how to do so better. 

Via no mind. 
 

It is not so much that we wish to think or not, it is just that we’d like to have the option to go from hard thinking to nothing

Edited April 25, 2022 by mw711

[aurum]

9 hours ago, Chrisd said:

Contemporaries who claim to function basically without thought: guruswamig, gary weber (happinessbeyondthought.com), christopher cornelius (coherencehealing.love).

You can also look at what Nisargadatta Maharaj said: about his mind "M: Of course not! I am fully conscious, but since no desire or fear enters my mind, there is perfect silence"

I'd say silence isn't the point though, it should be pleasurable silence. Gary Weber describes a sweetness to his silence, while guruswamig does not. I imagine ultimately a silent mind + ecstasy is ideal.

My only question is how do these people then do what they do?

For instance, Christopher Cornelius has a whole bio about himself on his website. He clearly wrote it. He clearly has written a whole book. How has he accomplished this without thinking a single thought? How would you even have an idea to write a book in the first place without some form of impulse? What creates emotion for them if not thought?

I don’t intend to call these people liars. Perhaps it is possible. I simply would like to understand it better.

[r0ckyreed]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Really good

Thanks.  Still trying to be as clear as possible.  Thanks for your feedback and support.

 

5 hours ago, gettoefl said:

mind is a great servant but a poor master, use it when needed but most are letting it run things 100% ... you are not a finite machine

leo's latest video on ketamine touches on the default happiness that exists when mind is not operational ... this is the baseline state to reside in

Throughout my life, my mind has pretty much always been good master.  Logic, rationality, and the intellect have been my superpowers that have set me apart from most of my peers throughout school.  I was fortunate to have the wisdom to learn from others mistakes and to weigh the pros and cons of any endeavor.  In terms of existential thinking, I have been naturally contemplating since I was very young.  At around age 4, I remember questioning the religious God and how the religious God could create itself.  

3 hours ago, Happy Lizard said:

look at it in as integral part of a whole that is your health. meditation isn't going to give you all your health/goals, it's just going to help you put on a better health if you take it as a part of a whole. for example, you don't just wear shoes and go out in the street naked, in order to have an appropriate clothing you need  shoes, a shirt and pants. you can can choose the length look and style based on what you like but the tree parts are necessary. 

meditation is kind of like shoes, the modern world are running out with a shirt(career) and pants(say physical exercise or diet etc) but are missing a good shoe to protect their feet. it's just that some folks makes it all about the shoes(meditations). 

You are right.  I was using meditation so intensively like a whole that I stopped thinking for a while.  I was actually convinced by other Buddhist and spiritual teachers that thinking is dangerous and not thinking is good.  But that is an ignorant position to hold as I see now.  

Actuality is important, but imagination is part of actuality.  It is easy to dismiss the value of thoughts as being fantasy or whatever, but if I am always in actuality and suppressing thoughts, I will be dumber by that.  Intellectual understanding, knowledge, and wisdom is something I value.  Meditation is good for connecting to the intuition but I feel like a big part of reality is missing if that is all I focus on.  Meditation alone is not holistic enough to attain the deepest understanding of reality. Took me 4 years to realize that.

1 hour ago, mw711 said:

Thinking effects almost, if not, everything we do.

So we must, at least, agree it is important.

I agree.  You cannot survive without thought.  Knowledge is limited without it as well.

10 minutes ago, aurum said:

My only question is how do these people then do what they do?

My bullshit detector has also been activated as well.  Maybe I am missing something or not, but I feel like a whole world is lost without thought.

[ZzzleepingBear]

I would not say that the ultimate goal of meditation is to stop thinking. But rather become aware of thought as they arise, and not be draged along with a narrative in the mind that may take you on a emotional ride that you didn't asked for.

It could be compared with lucid dreaming. Alot of time, most people don't know that they dreaming when they are in a dream. When compared with lucid dreaming. You find yourself in a dream, and can partake in the dream and make active choices based on your awakeness within the dream.

Edited April 25, 2022 by ZzzleepingBear

[gettoefl]

10 hours ago, aurum said:

My only question is how do these people then do what they do?

For instance, Christopher Cornelius has a whole bio about himself on his website. He clearly wrote it. He clearly has written a whole book. How has he accomplished this without thinking a single thought? How would you even have an idea to write a book in the first place without some form of impulse? What creates emotion for them if not thought?

I don’t intend to call these people liars. Perhaps it is possible. I simply would like to understand it better.

in short, put mind aside and then god/awareness runs the show and it does a far better job than a finite machine ... it is how jesus could say, your will be done not mine

[Raze]

14 hours ago, aurum said:

My only question is how do these people then do what they do?

For instance, Christopher Cornelius has a whole bio about himself on his website. He clearly wrote it. He clearly has written a whole book. How has he accomplished this without thinking a single thought? How would you even have an idea to write a book in the first place without some form of impulse? What creates emotion for them if not thought?

I don’t intend to call these people liars. Perhaps it is possible. I simply would like to understand it better.

Creative and planning thoughts aren’t stopped. In the same way you don’t think every word before you speak. 

[Rokazulu]

This article can help you, so I will share it as I am not attempting to solely advance my own interests here:
https://medium.com/@jaronfund/self-improvement-is-the-barrier-to-enlightenment-and-the-way-to-it-157f14d34462

To paraphrase the article— no-thought improves thought and no-thought is the highest ideal

One can obtain a high amount of balance by simply having more control of their thought. We use thought incessantly and therefore it will always have control over us unless we transcend that notion through meditation. So in this way, no-thought improves and refines our thought. And the goal of enlightenment will be to continually create more control of our thought.

We may believe thought is always necessary, but that isn't exactly true. For example, some people have the ability to calculate numbers through imagination alone. They can see an equation and the see the number pop into their mind. No thought is needed at all, from this expanded point of view.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Rokazulu

[Chrisd]

9 hours ago, Raze said:

In the same way you don’t think every word before you speak. 

Right, that would be exhausting.

When you're in a flow state you don't need to think

I typed that sentence without thinking, but hey now I'm typing this with and without some thought

Edited April 26, 2022 by Chrisd

[Chrisd]

M(nisargadatta): A tremendously complex work is going on all the time in your brain and body, are you conscious of it? Not at all. Yet for an outsider all seems to be going on intelligently and purposefully. M: What is wrong with a life which is free from problems? Personality is merely a reflection of the real. Why should not the reflection be true to the original as a matter of course, automatically? Need the person have any designs of its own? The life of which it is an expression will guide it. Once you realise that the person is merely a shadow of the reality, but not reality itself, you cease to fret and worry. You agree to be guided from within and life becomes a journey into the unknown.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Chrisd

[Thought Art]

To cultivate inner peace, joy and pleasure. 

[Gesundheit2]

On 25/04/2022 at 1:01 AM, r0ckyreed said:

However, after meditating for long periods of time, I have noticed that my memory has decreased since I have been meditating for long periods of time (more than 20 minutes a day). I have also noticed that it can be hard to visualize things and be creative because I’m so used to bringing my attention back to the present moment. But there was also times for meditation has helped me to be more creative as well but not nearly enough.

I don't think memory decrease is the most accurate description. For me, meditation has made the memories hazy, or in other words it detached me from them as if they have stopped being mine anymore. I don't think I have lost any of my memories. I can remember things as vividly as anyone else, I think the main difference is that I don't have that on the fly and that I might need some time to get absorbed in the thoughts. Though, I might fail at that, and in many cases that's actually fine and even preferred.

[aurum]

12 hours ago, gettoefl said:

in short, put mind aside and then god/awareness runs the show and it does a far better job than a finite machine ... it is how jesus could say, your will be done not mine

I understand putting aside the analytical mind temporarily and “getting out the way” so to speak. That’s what I do when I channel. But even when I channel, I still have thoughts. 

Can your thoughts also not be God’s thoughts? You are God. God’s will is your will. When I’m tuned in, I find there is no difference.

Perhaps what is needed here is a clearer definition of “thought”. 

12 hours ago, Raze said:

Creative and planning thoughts aren’t stopped. In the same way you don’t think every word before you speak. 

For me, if creative and planning thoughts aren’t stopped, that still qualifies as mind and not no-mind. No-mind would be no images, no words, no nothing.

I can understand having temporary experiences or moments of that. I have them everyday. But always thinking returns, and I’m not convinced it can or should be otherwise.

Edited April 26, 2022 by aurum