Leo latest video - Ketamine

[bambi]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't doubt that it will be profound. But I just don't see myself recommending that to people given the danger.

I don't really feel safe doing a k-hole dose. It doesn't feel healthy to me. Maybe I am wrong but I have to be very careful not do something harmful. I trust trypamines far more in this regard.

If an equally profound experience can be had on DMT, why use ketamine? That's my point.

I don't feel comfortable taking a 5x dose of what I took -- which is what it sounds like I'd have to take for k-hole.

TBH its not that dangerous as a one off, just take it and lie on your bed, its kinda fun before and after the hole, youll just be so disorientated you wont be able to stand up. But honestly I cant see how you could hurt yourself. I used to mix it with alcohol and go clubbing lol, just had some stupid experiences doing that, Ive never known anyone to hurt themselves k holing. Can be disturbing for other people watching you lol as youll be like a zombie

[axiom]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I'm not really interested in chemicals to access total formlessness. I'm more interested in totally alien states of consciousness which I have as yet not encountered. 

I think the most obvious chemical to experience such “alien” states is psilocybin. I really, really recommend a 5-6 gram dose, blindfolded, wearing headphones and listening to the ICL Psilocybin playlist. I wouldn’t scrimp on the dose even if you consider yourself to have low tolerance.

The addition of music has some very profound effects which may well give you the totally alien experience you’re after. Not God consciousness as such - more like profoundly deep soul consciousness. An absolutely fascinating state which I think may help to put 5MEO-style God consciousness into an even deeper context and allow fuller integration.

The ICL-selected tracks were included and ordered so as to maximise the emotional impact of the journey, with different tracks coming along at what feels like exactly the right time.

It’s mindblowing. You will completely forget you were / are human if you follow the protocol, don’t open your eyes, etc. The difference between being blindfolded + playlist or just taking 5g eyes-open and “chilling” is probably pretty similar to the difference between lighting a scented candle versus being hurled into the sun.

Since it takes you so completely into the moment, into the infinite Y axis, the downside is it will feel like madness for the last couple of hours as you experience thought loops (the X axis, or “time” coming back online) and the shifting between two worlds (“heaven” and “Earth”). But you can leave notes to calm you down and remind yourself that you’ve taken a drug and the feelings of madness will pass.

Cannot recommend this experience enough. I would be very interested to hear if you consider it to be more / less profound than your breakthrough experiences with 5MEO.

[machii]

Where I live theres a legal version of ketamine called 2F-Ketamine (2-FDCK) is that any good?

[Thought Art]

They do ketamine therapy in my city if you have a referral. I’m considering it… but, it’s not likely a priority 

[bambi]

1 hour ago, axiom said:

I think the most obvious chemical to experience such “alien” states is psilocybin. I really, really recommend a 5-6 gram dose, blindfolded, wearing headphones and listening to the ICL Psilocybin playlist. I wouldn’t scrimp on the dose even if you consider yourself to have low tolerance.

The addition of music has some very profound effects which may well give you the totally alien experience you’re after. Not God consciousness as such - more like profoundly deep soul consciousness. An absolutely fascinating state which I think may help to put 5MEO-style God consciousness into an even deeper context and allow fuller integration.

The ICL-selected tracks were included and ordered so as to maximise the emotional impact of the journey, with different tracks coming along at what feels like exactly the right time.

It’s mindblowing. You will completely forget you were / are human if you follow the protocol, don’t open your eyes, etc. The difference between being blindfolded + playlist or just taking 5g eyes-open and “chilling” is probably pretty similar to the difference between lighting a scented candle versus being hurled into the sun.

Since it takes you so completely into the moment, into the infinite Y axis, the downside is it will feel like madness for the last couple of hours as you experience thought loops (the X axis, or “time” coming back online) and the shifting between two worlds (“heaven” and “Earth”). But you can leave notes to calm you down and remind yourself that you’ve taken a drug and the feelings of madness will pass.

Cannot recommend this experience enough. I would be very interested to hear if you consider it to be more / less profound than your breakthrough experiences with 5MEO.

 

This sense of time and perception coming back online happens in a k-hole

[Thought Art]

The way Leo describes meditation “the same old breath counting technique”… 

I think if he began exploring Qigong, meridians and tan tians he would see that even meditation have so many variations. 
 

I admit he likely acknowledges this but. There is more than just boring sitting and doing nothing meditation out there.

[The0Self]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I'm more interested in totally alien states of consciousness which I have as yet not encountered. But I also have to be careful that accessing these states doesn't come with too much risk. For example I would like to experience what datura can do, but it's too dangerous IMO.

I laughed out loud when I read that !! Oh man... You'd be very intrigued by the k hole. Or just higher doses. If you've experienced god realization on just LSD (or any psychedelic really), the high dose ketamine infinite state will present much differently to you than it does to those who haven't. For ketamine's infinitely expanded state or "god realization equivalent," you don't even necessarily need k hole (full anesthesia and bodily sensory disconnection), just fairly close to it. It's quite safe in high individual infrequent doses. If you use ~75-150mg once every 2 months I find it hard to see any downsides, but you'll have to do your own research and decide for yourself.

 

I plugged and insufflated a lot of substances, and plugging was better in all applicable compounds... except ketamine. For some reason it works better with me intranasally. Just looked it up and apparently, while the research is all over the place, the trend I've noticed can be summed up as at least this pro-intranasal:

"The bioavailability of ketamine administered via an intranasal route has been reported to be between 25–50% (36). A study in healthy volunteers comparing administration methods found intranasal ketamine bioavailability of 45%, higher than sublingual, oral, or rectal administration and found no significant differences in pharmacokinetics between preparations, including injection (37). Additionally, this study found conversion to norketamine was more similar between intranasal and injection than the other administration methods, suggesting that first-pass metabolism is relatively absent with intranasal administration."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4185009/pdf/nihms582382.pdf

Some quick googling often with "ncbi" in the search terms is how I generally determine what a compound's pharmacokinetics are. Some studies put the intranasal bioavailability even higher, but ime, it's not just the bioavailability, so maybe something like that increased norketamine conversion is in play somehow. I have actually IV'd the stuff too and it was indeed the most powerful and quick ROA (50-75mg k-hole I believe), but snorting can get you to the same place just a little slower and with >2x the product -- IN peaks (tmax) in 15 minutes. These days I would never IV anything -- bit crazy back then.

 

Datura apparently uses the same mechanism as DPH, which I have tried at deliriant doses. It was well before I started actually getting somewhere in the exploration of Self and god consciousness, but it's still fresh enough in my memory for me to definitely feel it's not worth the miserable dysphoria that pervaded the entire trip -- The dysphoria was utterly horrendous (though the hallucinations too were dark and sinister yet completely lifelike, they were nowhere near as challenging as the dysphoria)... Actual psychedelics are more enlightening anyway.

Psychedelics aren't the only class that can be used for ego death; god consciousness; timeless-infinite. Dissociatives do that too (in their own unique way) if psychedelics also do it for that particular character.

Edited April 25, 2022 by The0Self

[Gabith]

The biggest sense of Love I had was on a low dose of ketamine, it was the most beautiful & powerful experience in my life... 

[The0Self]

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't feel comfortable taking a 5x dose of what I took -- which is what it sounds like I'd have to take for k-hole.

You don't even really need to k hole for the infinitely expanded state, you just have to get close. Really it will basically be a k hole, just not a catatonic k hole. I actually can't remember the exact doses I took, unfortunately, but I definitely would generally use between 30 and 200mg intranasally in a sitting, not necessarily all at once. I think at 70-100mg (at once, and actually more like 110mg rectal as the bioavailability is backwards with this) it would be teetering on the edge of opening up the timeless infinite, but the definite k hole kicked in after around >140mg intranasal. >200mg for an absolutely catatonic k hole fwiw but that's not needed at all, and I'd never go that high on purpose.

By the way... Every time I k holed (or got very close) without the intention to lie down the entire time, I'd somehow end up with a gash in my head. Absolutely lie down.

Edited April 25, 2022 by The0Self

[The0Self]

4 hours ago, machii said:

Where I live theres a legal version of ketamine called 2F-Ketamine (2-FDCK) is that any good?

I wouldn't purposely take anything with fluorine atoms, but that's just my holistic intuition. But I have used DCK (deschloroketamine), and it was nowhere near as fruitful, clean, and insightful as ketamine, particularly rs-ketamine. Though there was one research chemical called MXE (methoxetamine) which was apparently the cleanest dissociative ever made, so RC's aren't necessarily worse than regular k.

[Vincent S]

@The0Self Just curious, how long did your K-holes last for?
For me it lasted between 2-3 hours. And I had after effects for like 2hrs.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Vincent S

[FenixFunkFive]

I feel like Leo did not do his due diligence in preparing the video on ketamine. No mention of John Lilly. No mention of sensory deprivation. No mention of ketamine as an anesthetic in humans, particularly young and old patients, not just animals. No discussion of the maps Lilly made. And Leo takes doses that are inadequate to reach the deep ketamine realms, then gives a misleading report on the lower levels.

 

Similarly, his episode on nootropics was seriously lacking.

 

Imagine if Leo drove to see Devil's Tower, but he kept his back to it the whole time so he never saw it, then came back to share what happened.  Now, no one knows that the tower was really there. That's Leo's ketamine report.

Baby Nerd (part 1).mp3

[MsNobody]

@FenixFunkFive aww I liked the video, it is quite impossible to talk about everything!

Maybe you could create a video with the subjects that were not talked about? 

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."

[The0Self]

31 minutes ago, Vincent S said:

@The0Self Just curious, how long did your K-holes last?
For me it lasted between 2-3 hours. And I had after effects for like 2hrs.

Interesting! Shorter than that. For intranasal rs-ketamine 150mg: onset in a couple minutes, peak at about T+15min (k-hole begins by this point, sometimes as early as 8-10 minutes, if dose is high enough), comedown begins by about T+45min, with fairly strong after-effects persisting until about T+2hr. By T+60min I'm never ever still k-holed, just tripping very hard. Deschloroketamine on the other hand lasted 2-3 hours with after effects for like another 2-3.

Edited April 25, 2022 by The0Self

[MsNobody]

@Leo Gura You might like this.

This article discusses the relationship between “inner space” (the mind/consciousness) and perceptions of “outer space” (the extraterrestrial) in Western psychedelic cultures. In particular, it analyses the writings and lectures of Terence McKenna, the most influential psychedelic thinker since the 1960s. Assimilating a broad range of ideas taken from esotericism, shamanism, and science fiction, McKenna became the principal architect of an occult theory of psychedelic experiences referred to here as “psychedelic ufology.” The article further argues that McKenna was formatively influenced by the ideas of Carl Jung and that, as such, subsequent psychedelic ufology tends to be Jungian. KEYWORDS: Terence McKenna, Carl Jung, psychedelic ufology, UFOs, hallucinogens, shamanism, gnosis.

https://eprints.lancs.ac.uk/id/eprint/133752/1/Inner_Space_Outer_Space.pdf

[Gabith]

@The0Self I never had the courage to take a high dose 

[Leo Gura]

7 hours ago, bambi said:

Thanks for the reply

1) My bladder is really fucked, its healing and recovering as I type (been over 3 months since I did ketamine), also it screws cognitive ability after a certain point, chess score drops by 20-30% after an inflection point of consuming has been reached. I definately pushed the boat here

This is very concerning.

7 hours ago, bambi said:

2) Interesting shizen young I dont regard highly, Ingrams book is okay for a specific type of meditaiton which you mention. Both these though don't represent the fullness or joyness of meditation.  After two vipassana retreats which are no fun at alll, I switched and learnt shamatha or Jhana practise as taught by people like Ajahn Brahm, they have a complete over take on meditaiton. I achieved the first Jhana in meditaiton retreat, and its indescribable, its stronger in my experience then any psychedelic's I tried, and more pure and wholesome.

Close your eyes, and imagine letting go of everything in the universe apart from your breathe, joy and happiness arise, and when you get proficient, the strangest thing occurs, in your visual feild (with eyes closed) the purest brightest white light/disc appears, and with it comes a release, kinda like being unbinded, and the joy and happiness and contentment it brings become unlmited, and you can actually absorb into this bright white light. The whole fo reality dissapears, sense of self etc and your just immersed in this pure bright light, but drenched in pure joy and happiness. This is the 1st Jhana, many mons describe it as what people assume heaven to be, and theres 8 of these things.

Sounds cool

10 hours ago, Michal__ said:

Have you read some of Meister Eckhart's sermons? It seems like the top Christian mystics really knew / know that you are God.

I have not read them but I know some of the Christian mystics had a good grasp on God and Love.

8 hours ago, Tristan12 said:

One thing i've been sort of confused about is if infinity is the impossible made possible, why does reality 'have to' be this way and that way, and not some other way?

It's just too profound to speak. This requires a profound awakening that cannot be put into words.

You have to realize that there is no difference between one way and any other way.

8 hours ago, Tristan12 said:

Why is infinity not knowable, why is God Love, and then you give logical explanations to why these are the case, but why does reality have to work logically?

The basis of logic is A = A. A thing must be itself. That's fundamentally what Truth is: as thing is itself. This sounds obvious and trivial but to actually awaken to the absoluteness of A = A is utterly profound and shocking. Believe it or not you don't actually understand that A = A. You don't comprehend how absolute it is. A must be A, absolutely.

8 hours ago, Tristan12 said:

Why couldn't infinity be completely knowable, even though it makes no sense and is impossible, since infinity/reality is the impossible made possible?

A big part of the issue here is how you define "knowable". If by knowable you mean some symbolic scheme or concept, that is totally impossible because those are finite by definition. The finite cannot be large enough to contain the infinite. Infinity has to be endless explicable, which means you can only "know" parts of it, and it has endless parts so your "knowing" is never closer to the end than when it began.

It's sort of like you're asking, "Why can't I know all the numbers?" Because knowing them requires holding them in your mind as specific forms and there are infinitely many of them to think up. No matter how long or hard to sit there thinking up numbers you will never reach the last number.

Infinity is the impossible made possible but it's not nonsensical gibberish. It has an almost logical-like consistency to it which is based on A = A. If A doesn't equal A, then nothing works. A thing must be itself to exist. You could ask why but the only answer is that you must grok it.

7 hours ago, bambi said:

TBH its not that dangerous as a one off, just take it and lie on your bed, its kinda fun before and after the hole, youll just be so disorientated you wont be able to stand up. But honestly I cant see how you could hurt yourself. I used to mix it with alcohol and go clubbing lol, just had some stupid experiences doing that, Ive never known anyone to hurt themselves k holing. Can be disturbing for other people watching you lol as youll be like a zombie

I'm not so much worried about physically hurting myself as hurting my brain function or perceptual system or organs. The chemical itself doesn't feel good for the brain/body. Maybe I'm wrong but it's not something I'm eager to toy with. I don't get that feeling on classic psychedelics.

6 hours ago, axiom said:

I think the most obvious chemical to experience such “alien” states is psilocybin. I really, really recommend a 5-6 gram dose, blindfolded, wearing headphones and listening to the ICL Psilocybin playlist. I wouldn’t scrimp on the dose even if you consider yourself to have low tolerance.

The addition of music has some very profound effects which may well give you the totally alien experience you’re after. Not God consciousness as such - more like profoundly deep soul consciousness. An absolutely fascinating state which I think may help to put 5MEO-style God consciousness into an even deeper context and allow fuller integration.

The ICL-selected tracks were included and ordered so as to maximise the emotional impact of the journey, with different tracks coming along at what feels like exactly the right time.

It’s mindblowing. You will completely forget you were / are human if you follow the protocol, don’t open your eyes, etc. The difference between being blindfolded + playlist or just taking 5g eyes-open and “chilling” is probably pretty similar to the difference between lighting a scented candle versus being hurled into the sun.

Since it takes you so completely into the moment, into the infinite Y axis, the downside is it will feel like madness for the last couple of hours as you experience thought loops (the X axis, or “time” coming back online) and the shifting between two worlds (“heaven” and “Earth”). But you can leave notes to calm you down and remind yourself that you’ve taken a drug and the feelings of madness will pass.

Cannot recommend this experience enough. I would be very interested to hear if you consider it to be more / less profound than your breakthrough experiences with 5MEO.

This is interesting. I have not done that. Although forgetting I'm a human is what I get in my God-realizations. I'm still in the human body so to speak but it becomes the body of God.

My worst bad trip was on 4g of mushrooms so I'm hesitant to do high dose mushrooms. It turns into madness for me -- very chaotic and terrifying without much spiritual take-away other than "holy fuck consciousness can be crazy". To me the only value in that is to experience what true madness feels like.

49 minutes ago, The0Self said:

I laughed out loud when I read that !! Oh man... You'd be very intrigued by the k hole.

I'm sure I would be.

49 minutes ago, The0Self said:

I plugged and insufflated a lot of substances, and plugging was better in all applicable compounds... except ketamine.

Yes, I have read that. I'd still rather do a larger dose plugged. Snorting 100mg+ of chemical is not my idea of fun.

39 minutes ago, The0Self said:

but the definite k hole kicked in after around >140mg intranasal. >200mg for an absolutely catatonic k hole fwiw but that's not needed at all, and I'd never go that high on purpose.

I see, thanks for sharing.

39 minutes ago, The0Self said:

By the way... Every time I k holed (or got very close) without the intention to lie down the entire time, I'd somehow end up with a gash in my head. Absolutely lie down.

I can see that. It was hard for me to balance on a 30mg dose.

9 minutes ago, FenixFunkFive said:

I feel like Leo did not do his due diligence in preparing the video on ketamine. No mention of John Lilly. No mention of sensory deprivation. No mention of ketamine as an anesthetic in humans, particularly young and old patients, not just animals. No discussion of the maps Lilly made. And Leo takes doses that are inadequate to reach the deep ketamine realms, then gives a misleading report on the lower levels.

I might do an updated ketamine video in the future.

You are right, these were my first impressions of it. I don't want to discount its full potential. But also I was hesitant to want to do it at higher doses.

[Vincent S]

1 hour ago, The0Self said:

Interesting! Shorter than that. For intranasal rs-ketamine 150mg: onset in a couple minutes, peak at about T+15min (k-hole begins by this point, sometimes as early as 8-10 minutes, if dose is high enough), comedown begins by about T+45min, with fairly strong after-effects persisting until about T+2hr. By T+60min I'm never ever still k-holed, just tripping very hard. Deschloroketamine on the other hand lasted 2-3 hours with after effects for like another 2-3.

I remember watching Ketamine documentary with John Lilly, he mentioned that above 150mg to 250mg range it gets really out of whack.
Do you think going higher than 150mg, might contribute extending the peak duration? I took 220mg Intranasal S-Isomer. Definitely got super extraterrestrial during the onset, And the hole was just the longest thing ever.

Coming back from the trip I was so confused, because I was expecting a 45min trip, not 2-3hrs

Edited April 25, 2022 by Vincent S

[MsNobody]

@Gabith I also had such beautiful experiences with K, I looked at my friend and could see her pure soul, seeing beyond the ego.

I think ketamine dissolves all the samskaras/ blockages of the body and we can feel our true nature, it relaxes the body, the substance doesn't provide us with love and bliss, we are love and bliss, our traumas and stuff that are on the way to experiencing this state in our sober reality. 

On the other side and given that I did K only around 25 times, I developed sinus problems and till to this day never fully recovered. I believe there are way better substances to work with. 

[Gabith]

@MsNobody thanks for sharing