Truth is not an EQUATION

[A Fellow Lighter]

Meaning that the universe is not held (or contained) by logic.

I keep seeing people trying to rationalise their way to the Godhead, as this forum refers to it. I'm not exactly sure what the goal is with this but it sure cannot be awakening. With this I hope there is clear agreement. I'm not trying to be negative at all, just being sincere with this matter. Feel free to contemplate away if you wish.

Yes, being contemplative and rational about spirituality is a noble footing, but in terms of expanding awareness this does.. well, almost nothing if it hadn't been for its adaptive effect on one's belief system. Of course, unless one has confused awareness with relatability with the other-self (meaning you can identify and communicate with ease what most have identified and learned to communicate) then this sure can create the illusion of awakening (the growth of awareness). Be careful with your work.

I truly am not trying to discourage anyone from doing anything that they wish to do. I'm only trying to offer caution.

When trying to learn about the nature of and the nature for this universe, understand that this is not like the world of academia where everything is only considered in theory until verified by phenomena. This is the world of spirituality, and what we're dealing with here is the power that holds the universe intact, the power that is holding your personal reality as you perceive it. 

If you believe that that power that is holding the infinite frequencies of the universe is logic, then I wish nothing upon you other than true enlightenment. But if you've already woken to the real power of the universe then I can wish nothing upon you, for only more power and expansion naturally awaits you.

What holds the varying frequencies of the universe is not a logic or some conclusion that you've arrived at through whatever experience, for all conclusions and rationalisations can be abandoned at any time should the thinker will it. But there is something that can never be abandoned nor does anyone wish to forsaken it. And that is for me to keep and for you to awaken to.

Truth is not Equation. Equate truth to whatever belief systems you use to function in this world, and Truth will prove ever so chaotic to you. 

[Adamq8]

I agree to some degree, but logic is always there whether we want to or not, 2+2=5 will never be true, but logic is one way that God is ordering creation because it is the Logos itself, it is an ordered Infinite Mind.

Chaos can be there but since Logos is the Mind which holds ideas in its Mind there will always be consistency to reality in a way.

Numbers, logic etc, exists within the mind of God.

Academia do not have monopoly on logic or reason.

But as you said, we have to transcend logic and reason and rely on higher faculties in order to meet God, logical thinking only gets one started but then we have to take the leap into to the infinite mystery of God.

[GreenWoods]

The facets of awakening are logical, imo. 

You can reach conceptual understanding of Reality through studying nondual theory and contemplation, that's conceptual awakening then.

And when you increase your consciousness enough, you reach direct understanding. 

The difference between conceptual and direct understanding is your state of consciousness. 

[BipolarGrowth]

I agree. 

Edited April 22, 2022 by BipolarGrowth

[A Fellow Lighter]

1 hour ago, Adamq8 said:

I agree to some degree, but logic is always there whether we want to or not, 2+2=5 will never be true, but logic is one way that God is ordering creation because it is the Logos itself, it is an ordered Infinite Mind.

Neither do I refute the usefulness and existence of logic. All I am saying is that one must not confuse the tool for for the Infinite Mind as you put it. If the infinite mind is capable of logical work then it is also capable of illogical work.

1 hour ago, Adamq8 said:

Chaos can be there but since Logos is the Mind which holds ideas in its Mind there will always be consistency to reality in a way.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Care to elaborate? What is “Logos”? 

2 hours ago, Adamq8 said:

But as you said, we have to transcend logic and reason and rely on higher faculties in order to meet God, logical thinking only gets one started but then we have to take the leap into to the infinite mystery of God.

Yes, exactly this.

 

1 hour ago, Adamq8 said:

Chaos can be there but since Logos is the Mind which holds ideas in its Mind there will always be consistency to reality in a way.

[A Fellow Lighter]

1 hour ago, GreenWoods said:

The facets of awakening are logical, imo. 

You can reach conceptual understanding of Reality through studying nondual theory and contemplation, that's conceptual awakening then.

And when you increase your consciousness enough, you reach direct understanding. 

The difference between conceptual and direct understanding is your state of consciousness. 

I don't refute any of this, it is all correct. My deal is not on conceptual awakening as you call it, it is on spiritual awakening - growth in awareness, not just understanding. 

[Adamq8]

12 hours ago, A Fellow Lighter said:

Neither do I refute the usefulness and existence of logic. All I am saying is that one must not confuse the tool for for the Infinite Mind as you put it. If the infinite mind is capable of logical work then it is also capable of illogical work.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Care to elaborate? What is “Logos”? 

Yes, exactly this.

 

 

I can elaborate, the Logos we call the second person of the Godhead, Logos is the power shaping creation.

 

We can try to use some imagery, The Father is the end all be all, there is no one before or after, which eternally creates its own perfect image which is the Son, who the Father shares his power and life with. 

And also the Spirit which proceeds from the Father.

The case is that the Father is absolutely infinite and completely unknowable in his essence, we can tho recognize and see God through his energies and activities. 

But the Father has infinite power and produces the Son, the first born, the Logos, the Divine Mind who is more logic/thinking/structure/order/laws

So the father creates matter, the son shapes it, and the spirit perfects it so to speak, making it come alive.

God is not some impersonal void of nirvana, he is the Living God which we can have a relationship with.

Everything that has been made was made through the Son, because without him everything that was made was not made.

The Godhead is non dual fundamentally, but also distinct, and the relationship between Father and the Son and Spirit is Love, Oneness and distinctness comes to together as a perfect Trinity in Unity thats why it can be both and still remain a Person.

We could develop a deep relationship with God but at the same time let God be God and we keep being humans trying to bring that Love to others in this wonderful creation. 

Nothing is impossible for God.

If you follow me now and keep an open mind i want to share where this Logos Theology is fufilled, it is in Jesus Christ, he is the Logos incarnated, taking on a human nature knowing full well how his own would recieve him, they would kill him, but then he would rise again.

He says in the Gospel of John to the priests that, tear this tempel down and I will rebuild it in 3 days, they thought he talked about the physical tempel in Jerusalem which had been in progress for 46 years and still was not finished. 

He meant his body, Christ defeated Death in order so we could be liberated from the chains of death and impermanence, because you are free to cease to exist when you die if that is what you want, but if you want eternal life, he says we need to follow him, because he says he is "the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the father except through ME"

Jesus is the Light which lightens every man that comes into the world.

And this process, that God can take on human form and still be 100%8 God, he has two natures, and thanks to that we can also become God, not in essence but in activities and his energys, this is called theosis in Eastern Orthodox Christianity.

We have ALOT of enlightened monks, priests, bishops which is living a life in stillness, hesychasm is the name for it.

Philokalia, and The way of a pilgrim and Holy hesychia the Stillness that knows God is EXCELLENT books to read if you are interested in reaching theosis, and cultivating inner stillness and a emptying of one self so that God through grace fills it up with his presence.

Sorry for this long and probably unrelated answer , I feel that, there is a treasure chest of deep spiritual life and experience in Orthodox.

There is alot of Saints who we would consider enlightened and also did good works in the community and a few of them performed miracles where there is thousands of eye Witnesses,  one of them is St Paisios the elder and St John Maximovitch just to name some modern fathers.

 

[A Fellow Lighter]

50 minutes ago, Adamq8 said:

I can elaborate, the Logos we call the second person of the Godhead, Logos is the power shaping creation.

 

We can try to use some imagery, The Father is the end all be all, there is no one before or after, which eternally creates its own perfect image which is the Son, who the Father shares his power and life with. 

And also the Spirit which proceeds from the Father.

The case is that the Father is absolutely infinite and completely unknowable in his essence, we can tho recognize and see God through his energies and activities. 

But the Father has infinite power and produces the Son, the first born, the Logos, the Divine Mind who is more logic/thinking/structure/order/laws

So the father creates matter, the son shapes it, and the spirit perfects it so to speak, making it come alive.

God is not some impersonal void of nirvana, he is the Living God which we can have a relationship with.

Everything that has been made was made through the Son, because without him everything that was made was not made.

The Godhead is non dual fundamentally, but also distinct, and the relationship between Father and the Son and Spirit is Love, Oneness and distinctness comes to together as a perfect Trinity in Unity thats why it can be both and still remain a Person.

We could develop a deep relationship with God but at the same time let God be God and we keep being humans trying to bring that Love to others in this wonderful creation. 

Nothing is impossible for God.

If you follow me now and keep an open mind i want to share where this Logos Theology is fufilled, it is in Jesus Christ, he is the Logos incarnated, taking on a human nature knowing full well how his own would recieve him, they would kill him, but then he would rise again.

He says in the Gospel of John to the priests that, tear this tempel down and I will rebuild it in 3 days, they thought he talked about the physical tempel in Jerusalem which had been in progress for 46 years and still was not finished. 

He meant his body, Christ defeated Death in order so we could be liberated from the chains of death and impermanence, because you are free to cease to exist when you die if that is what you want, but if you want eternal life, he says we need to follow him, because he says he is "the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the father except through ME"

Jesus is the Light which lightens every man that comes into the world.

And this process, that God can take on human form and still be 100%8 God, he has two natures, and thanks to that we can also become God, not in essence but in activities and his energys, this is called theosis in Eastern Orthodox Christianity.

We have ALOT of enlightened monks, priests, bishops which is living a life in stillness, hesychasm is the name for it.

Philokalia, and The way of a pilgrim and Holy hesychia the Stillness that knows God is EXCELLENT books to read if you are interested in reaching theosis, and cultivating inner stillness and a emptying of one self so that God through grace fills it up with his presence.

Sorry for this long and probably unrelated answer , I feel that, there is a treasure chest of deep spiritual life and experience in Orthodox.

There is alot of Saints who we would consider enlightened and also did good works in the community and a few of them performed miracles where there is thousands of eye Witnesses,  one of them is St Paisios the elder and St John Maximovitch just to name some modern fathers.

 

I see.. so Logos is the Son according to the orthodox church.. at least, that is here I understand this text. 

Are you Christian?

[Adamq8]

2 hours ago, A Fellow Lighter said:

I see.. so Logos is the Son according to the orthodox church.. at least, that is here I understand this text. 

Are you Christian?

The Logos is the Son in almost all Christian metaphysics. 

Yes I would say that I am in a process of embodying the Christian way, picking up the cross and following Jesus.

But I feel that most people have bad experiences with Christians, especially these evangelists and protestants, which I totally understand, some of them are really weird..

But Orthodoxy is not like that at all, it is the church Jesus and the apostles built.

What this actually looks like in a practical way is : 

Prayer/meditation.

Transcending passions , desires etc.

Fasting.

Giving to those who are less fortunate.

And ofcourse attending the divine liturgy in church. 

Reading and meditating on the bible etc.

And since I started this path, I have done more progress then ever before, you can really feel and live in Christ's presence and change your mind and heart, purifying the nous so one can see God more unbiased.

But then again i still listen to Leo, I have profound respect for Leo, he is extremely wise imo.

I have studied advaita vedanta, idealism and others, but found that orthodox christian is more fufilling and peace bringing then those others.

 

 

[A Fellow Lighter]

@Adamq8 I see. So is the term Logos coined/introduced by the Orthodox Church? Since it's part of the trinity and all. And do you consider it applicable to you? Do you think “The Son” somehow includes you too as a person, considering the fact that the Godhead only has but one Son? How do you interpret this?

[Galyna]

23 hours ago, A Fellow Lighter said:

Of course, unless one has confused awareness with relatability with the other-self (meaning you can identify and communicate with ease what most have identified and learned to communicate) then this sure can create the illusion of awakening (the growth of awareness). Be careful with your work.

The nature of the mind is to reason, contemplate and reflect. This is how mind produces the food for "your" survival, to sustain itself.

Time and length of the process is needed to keep the ego on the journey. Would it be interesting for the highest good to hide itself and immediately be discovered? Confusion is there for a purpose. Experience is slowly unfolding, each confusion and realization/insight leads to another door and deepens the experience of the Being. 

You are in the maze. That is the point, to confuse you. 

23 hours ago, A Fellow Lighter said:

If you believe that that power

Reality gives you exactly what you believe in it. It is a two-way street. Remember how the photons of light were changing their qualities when being observed? The observer and the observation are one, they depend and impact one another. You get exactly what you put in. 

Edited April 23, 2022 by Galyna

[Galyna]

21 hours ago, A Fellow Lighter said:

My deal is not on conceptual awakening as you call it, it is on spiritual awakening - growth in awareness, not just understanding. 

I think you are idealizing awakening.

First off, is there "your deal"? Hm...very interesting, looks like a free will to me.

Second of all, should it be a certain script of the process, if yes, who determines that?

Infinite potential realizes itself as is right now. Since it is infinite, who says that one facet of it is more correct/truthful than the other?  

Edited April 23, 2022 by Galyna

[ZzzleepingBear]

Truth may not be an equation, but it certainly is part of the equation.

[A Fellow Lighter]

@Galyna and @Aleister Crowleyy I think maybe you're misinterpreting what I've stated. I'm not refuting the usefulness of logic as a tool, I was merely saying don't confuse the conclusion you arrive at for an awakening. I mean surely you don't consider spiritual growth to be but a riddle to be solved by the mind, do you?

Truth is not some theoretical equation to be solved. That's all I'm saying. Every instance of life is fumed and expresses truth, even the statement 1 + 1 = 3 expresses a truth of its own, despite it being logically in correct. Hence I say Logic is not God, something else is. I mean even your very willingness to survive is an illogical one, trust me, you don't need a reason for everything. 

Awakening will signify itself in the way you live your life, not in your ability to reason and convince each other in this forum how God is Love. This is not spirituality.. it is philosophy. Isn't this obvious?

[A Fellow Lighter]

3 minutes ago, ZzzleepingBear said:

Truth may not be an equation, but it certainly is part of the equation.

No it's not. Truth is always absolute, meaning it's not a part of anything and, rather, everything is part of it - the logical and illogical are but a part of it, chaos and order are a part of it. Why? Because logic is not God. Something else is, and that's what you need to awaken to.

[Galyna]

53 minutes ago, A Fellow Lighter said:

I mean surely you don't consider spiritual growth to be but a riddle to be solved by the mind, do you?

This is not what I was trying to convey.

54 minutes ago, A Fellow Lighter said:

Hence I say Logic is not God

Then what is it? Does it come prior?

 

[ZzzleepingBear]

2 hours ago, A Fellow Lighter said:

No it's not. Truth is always absolute, meaning it's not a part of anything and, rather, everything is part of it - the logical and illogical are but a part of it, chaos and order are a part of it. Why? Because logic is not God. Something else is, and that's what you need to awaken to.

How would you then distinguish between truth and falsity then, if they where not both part of the same equation?

 

You can't claim something to be absolute, without the notion of the parts that it contains. 

Your claim to truth as absolute must be based on the distinguishing of what is true and false. Just as light and darkness goes together.

Truth + Falsity = Absolute. That makes truth and falsity same same but different, as being the totality of what is.

[A Fellow Lighter]

2 hours ago, Galyna said:

Then what is it? Does it come prior?

Logic is a tool. It does not come prior, for like any kind of imaginable tool.. it is forged. Logic has been forged by aeons and aeons of our species' evolution. It is not prior.

3 hours ago, Aleister Crowleyy said:

You will arrive at a conclusion. It will be the Absolute conclusion! 

If you believe that you can arrive at a conclusion in regards to the Infinite One.. then you're really really in for it, my friend. ? 

3 hours ago, Aleister Crowleyy said:

All is Mind

Be careful.

[Galyna]

16 minutes ago, A Fellow Lighter said:

Logic is a tool. It does not come prior, for like any kind of imaginable tool.. it is forged. Logic has been forged by aeons and aeons of our species' evolution.

But if you are totally honest with yourself, you do not have evidence of this? Evolution? What is evolution rather than just a story, bunch of thoughts in your mind. You truly do not know where the logic comes from, what you saying is something you have heard, it doesn't come from your direct experience. So we cannot lean on the past, lets talk about something closer, like something we can figure out right now. 

[A Fellow Lighter]

1 hour ago, Galyna said:

But if you are totally honest with yourself, you do not have evidence of this? Evolution? What is evolution rather than just a story, bunch of thoughts in your mind. You truly do not know where the logic comes from, what you saying is something you have heard, it doesn't come from your direct experience. So we cannot lean on the past, lets talk about something closer, like something we can figure out right now. 

Evolution is the flow of life, it is the only nature to life, and it is happening right in front of our eyes. This is no story or idea to me, it is truth, I am directly aware of it. There is no such thing as direct experience without evolution, everything is but one evolving experience.. something I have also learned.

And you are aware of it too, except you know it as time.. unless somehow you don't have the experience of time?

What people call time I call evolution of consciousness, because I've long awakened to the underlying nature of the unfolding of reality. In truth, there is no time, for time is but an attempt of measurement of something more profound and depth-full as the idea of time. I'm not leaning on the past when I speak of evolution, I'm leaning on its ever present and evident truth. 

What you have chosen to convey in the post above touches on a lot of matters. I am willing to discuss your points above, although that was not the intention of making this thread - I was merely offering caution about the traps I'm well too familiarised with in the path of spirituality. But I am willing to discuss.