Dating / picking up morally?

[zazen]

Theres a lot of content now days about hook up culture and its negative affects, or mens spaces talk about how body count affects pair bonding. How do we morally without guilt go about dating if we aren't in a position to be in a relationship due to focusing on other areas of life ie work, self actualisation or simply find it better to have a degree of independence, or we just want to do pick up for self development. We don't want to be celibate, but don't want a full blown relationship as that takes a lot of energy and time or if you don't believe in legal marriage/want kids.  Mens spaces talk about casual sex being bad for women then  promote spinning plates and 'enjoying the decline'. How can we enjoy the decline when we are living in that declining society. There are karmic affects, we create the society we live in. Dating can be viewed as development in that through the pain/pleasure cycle we experience, it forces us to seek the peace of presence which is always with us, it can be a force that pushes us and others towards self actualisation. But what we actually see in reality is most people becoming bitter, nihilistic, closed off, and dis embodied. They'll still have sex or meet those needs, but with minimal emotion, only going through the motions. And this is helped further through numbing, and substances such as alcohol, drugs etc. A emotionally healthy person should be able to feel emotion, a spiritually advanced person will feel emotion and yet not get attached. Thats what life and especially dating should teach us, to not be attached to form, and yet enjoy it. Be in the world yet not of it, I just don't see that happen and so have to question whether I want to contribute to that suffering. 

 

Knowledge makes one aware of the amoral aspect of human nature and biology when it comes to mating, evolution doesn't care about human happiness. We have to consciously live life to find happiness without giving in to some of our instincts. Ancient instincts, in a alien modern environment if not controlled will cause pain. Its why we can't just gorge on sugar salt fat, or have to fight to not be lazy when survival is taken care of. In the same way our mating instincts can cause a lot of problems and is in the modern world. As we become aware of the negative emotional  consequences unfettered mating has long term when people can't get into relationships or have so much baggage from failed hook ups or dating trying to lock down people or guys who just want to keep things casual, it makes it harder to partake in the dating game knowing its negative effects it has on women and society. Even if you are honest that you don't want anything serious, people still try to change you or view it as a challenge, and even if they sleep with you that can bond them despite what they say. In the end people get hurt and there is collateral damage. 

 

What is the right path.. our instincts drive us to mate, but awareness of the heartbreak those instincts can have causes conflict on what to do. The celibate life is lonely and your suppressing your desire unless transcended, the bachelor life is emotionally taxing and causes guilt of countless heart breaks, the monogamous relationship route is a huge time/energetic investment and thats if you even find the right partner, that also comes with its own challenges as being life long monogamous isn't even within our nature and is almost a spiritual yoga in and of itself. Each have theirs pros and cons and offer growth in different ways. Even if one wants a relationship, the process that leads there ie dating is bound to cause emotional heart break. Maybe the past way of courting (ie dating without sex) was the safest way as sex emotionally bonds us too much to people we find in the end aren't even compatible. People we have love affairs with aren't always people we can build a life with, and that whole process adds baggage disrupting happiness in future relationships. Now we get to know people whilst having sex, where as before people got to know each other before sex. Maybe that is the best method of dating whilst minimising heart break.. but attempting that in todays world you'll come across weak or not confident enough before they move on to someone that seems more 'serious' in their eyes. 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2022 by zazen

[Valach]

@zazen What are the negative aspects of hook up culture or casual sex to woman according to you?

[zazen]

Dating can cause you to mature as you go through the pain of rejection and loss, learning to rely on yourself for emotional well being. Why trauma healing and presence work is so important. Presence goes beyond the pain/pleasure cycle, but the others you have interacted with aren't usually working on that. One has to learn to deal with the guilt of the collateral damage left along the way. You could rationalise that its good for our emotional development when rejected, left or cheated on but most people and especially women can't handle it. We become closed off, bitter instead of better, commitment phobic, and nihilistic in the end ie black pill or women angry at men these days.

Red pill knowledge is double edged. Whats bad for women/society (hook ups leading to baggage, emotional/familial break down) is described, but whats prescribed is to spin plates, pick up and have rotations, causing the very society complained about in the end. Then they say just 'enjoy the decline' when they are living in that very declining society. Gaming and hook ups can set the precedence of enjoying variety / novelty, the thrill of the hunt and the dopamine it provides like an addiction. If intelligent, you can stop chasing the rush as with any addiction as you realise it no longer satisfies you or brings the pleasure it promises. Pleasures are external, joy is internal. Another option is to find pleasures that don't harm others emotionally.

How can a guy reconcile gaming / dating casually and 'alpha widowing' women ie being so good that you leave a emotional imprint on her, causing her dissatisfaction in her future relationships with lesser men? Its the fact that you leave them better off and your such a great guy that can actually hurt even more that they lost a catch. Picking up is one thing, but dropping off is another. Every drop hurts, and going backwards, in relationships or lifestyle is always painful as comparison is the thief of joy. We appear to live in the moment but really we live in and through the past.

A smaller and smaller sub group of men enjoy the pleasures of the dating market taking the women away from the average guys, and ruining these same women when they settle for less than what they experienced and which they got a taste of shortly. Morally you can clear your conscience if your upfront about your intentions and what you want, but even we know that women will try win your commitment through sex and time spent together, bonding them and inevitably getting hurt in the process of failing that.

Marriage is too risky, casual dating makes the moral kind feel guilt, celibacy requires transcendence.

[Valach]

@zazen Interesting points, I could relate to some of them. But I am still super confused about the part where casual sex or hook up culture is inherently bad for woman and woman only? Where did you come to this conclusion.

In my experience, I have known plenty of sexually liberal woman and plenty of conservative ones and I didn't really notice any difference in the way they fall in lover or in quality of their relationships (on contrary the more experienced woman often knew more clearly what they want and what are their dealbreakers - they were also a lot of fun). I myself have dated some girls who had more sexual experience than myself and they had no issue pair bond with me and didn't really cause any issues in terms of needing a variety of partners etc.

Also, this might go against a pickup or red pill ideology, but I were quite honest I found that higher number of sexual partners was actually more destructive to mens ability to form relationships then it was to womans. You seem like a really smart dude and I feel like you are doing what a lot of guys like me or you are doing (=over analyzing relationships and sexuality).

You don't have to answer this, but what is your experience with woman? Have you actually actively dated or is this all theory based?

Edited May 5, 2022 by Valach

[Leech]

If you’re concerned about the morality of casual sex you probably need to get laid more. 

[zazen]

It can be bad for men as well like you mentioned, but worse for women as they have a harder ability separating sex and emotion the way us men do. Men go through a lot of pain and loss in dating also and become bitter, negative experience isn't just a woman thing but a human thing.  For the guys who are good gaming wise you get hooked on the chase and thrill of it so once your in a relationship your even more tempted to cheat or end the relationship knowing you have the ability go get women easily. You have a certain power, and power doesn't corrupt as much as it reveals. It reveals our animal nature, instinctually which is to spread seed. Our intelligence of a higher order is what can over ride that and transcend those instincts, which we can choose to act on or not, rather than act on compulsively. Like you said, it can negatively impact men as far as relationships go. 

I'v dated and had success and thats the reason I contemplate all of this. I've had girls cheat with me or want to only to find out after that they were in a relationship, or had girls hit me up whilst in relationships saying they still have feelings (even 'religious' girls married who you wouldn't expect), a girl in a threesome once broke down crying after due to feelings of guilt (conservative up bringing). What it showed me was we'r all at a battle between our primal instincts and our intellect. Religion and society enforces sexual morality onto people by control rather than a natural growth that happens within us, and makes us feel bad or like we'r sinning for not living like their ideals.

 

When you actualise your in a position to be in the world and yet not of it ie engage in instincts like sex without it having to destroy our emotional well being. We become able to connect, without being attached. We indulge in the pleasure of the world, but the presence keeps us grounded enough to be okay once that pleasure leaves and so we avoid the pain/pleasure cycle. At a higher level engaging in casual sex as a sharing of energy rather than a groping for fulfilment through other people isn't a problem and thats what the liberals/spiritualists are shooting for, but it must come naturally.  We'r talking about how society should be (ie emotionally healthy for those activities) rather than how it is in its current evolution. Physically we are able to procreate from a young age, but we don't develop emotionally to handle those entanglements at those ages. Now days, we don't seem to develop emotionally at much later ages even.   If we ourselves are at such a stage in development, most of humanity isn't at that stage where there able to get involved in the pleasure of another person, without becoming addicted to the pleasure that other person gives and the forth coming emotions of possessiveness, jealousy etc coming into the picture destabilising their emotions. 

 

Even girls who are just friends of mine still deal with past baggage making it harder for them to be happier in current relationships and still 'healing'. Maybe as your a higher caliber of man  (being on this forum I assume so) you have no problem getting any kind of woman to bond well with you, but whats the after affect of that when she goes to someone who isn't on your level.  Guys who aren't getting laid may not bother about these things as their trying to get laid in the first place, or could be using it as a cope to not take action, or just empathic enough and into self actualisation that they question life more deeply and wish to know whats the right course of action. 

 

 

Edited May 5, 2022 by zazen

[Fernanda]

12 hours ago, zazen said:

Even girls who are just friends of mine still deal with past baggage making it harder for them to be happier in current relationships and still 'healing'.

@zazen That's a huge problem. The majority of both men and and women seem to be living in the past somehow, even casual sex and dating seems empty somehow, it lacks "presence', as you said. My friends talk about past relationships endlessly, cultivating what is not and I find it so weird. I mean...I can have a great night without comparing experiences. I can keep having a good time without labeling anything, but it's not common for most people. As you said... "comparison is the thief of joy".

12 hours ago, zazen said:

Maybe as your a higher caliber of man  (being on this forum I assume so) you have no problem getting any kind of woman to bond well with you, but whats the after affect of that when she goes to someone who isn't on your level. 

May I ask you what would be the after effect on your POV? Have you gone through this situation? Just wish to understand it better.

Than you. Great insights you left here.

[Terell Kirby]

On 4/22/2022 at 7:12 AM, zazen said:

How do we morally without guilt go about dating

I’d start by not denying sexual cravings and urges. You are human at the end of the day, dating is a survival strategy (closely tied to the need to reproduce and experience crude forms of love). Don’t overthink it, don’t judge yourself.

Find a way to satisfy these needs while not causing harm to yourself or other. It’s that simple really.

[kag101]

5 hours ago, Fernanda said:

even casual sex and dating seems empty somehow, it lacks "presence', as you said.

Casual dating is the way to go imo. Best of both worlds. Not for everyone though.

https://www.healthline.com/health/casual-dating

[zazen]

On 5/6/2022 at 8:24 AM, Terell Kirby said:

I’d start by not denying sexual cravings and urges. You are human at the end of the day, dating is a survival strategy (closely tied to the need to reproduce and experience crude forms of love). Don’t overthink it, don’t judge yourself.

Find a way to satisfy these needs while not causing harm to yourself or other. It’s that simple really.

True. I guess being upfront and clear about what we want. These days a lot of guys don't want children or marriage, and even a serious relationship. Having integrity and stating this early on before getting sexual will probably leave a guy thirsty, as a recent post in the dating section just made one on integrity losing him sexual encounters. 

Reflecting on this I think it comes down to responsibility and how much and where the line is drawn for our responsibility towards ourselves and others feelings. We can't take full responsibility for others emotions as that is toxic and will drive us crazy. But we can't just take responsibility for ourselves without considering others.In fact its complimentary, for us to be happy ourselves, we need the people around us to also be happy to a certain extent. The middle balanced way is take some responsibility for yourself AND some for others. In fact, taking all the responsibility for another human being is in a way dis-respecting them. Its saying they aren't mature enough to make their own decisions and take life into their own hands, its almost dis-empowering. We'r telling them they have no agency, power, or life within them. As long as we are upfront, honest, respectful and treat others with dignity should be fine. 

 

On 5/6/2022 at 8:58 AM, kag101 said:

Casual dating is the way to go imo. Best of both worlds. Not for everyone though.

https://www.healthline.com/health/casual-dating

Yes, that state of limbo between meeting and where is this going or is it going somewhere anywhere serious keeps us in competition anxiety to lock each other down in the dating phase. It can be exhausting, and either side catches feelings and decides to leave as the pain gets too much for them to stay in something one sided. 

[SeaMonster]

OK, I have a logical answer for you.

If you don't believe in a full-blown relationship or legal marriage/kids, then you are committing sins of omission rather than commission, but they are still "sins."  Yor are still being selfish and hence "immoral.' It's simply that you've arbitrarily drawn a line where this passive type of selfishness vis-a-vis society is acceptable to you, and the more active one of "ruining women" (I'm paraphrasing) isn't.

But it is an arbitrary line and presents an irresolvable problem.  The only way to resolve it is to realize that your morality is arbitrary and fix it so it is more coherent and doesn't create cognitive dissonance.

[Raze]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkwxdEVBe0U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sI73CQtDqKQ

 

[universe]

I don't know in which world you live in. I haven't experienced what you describe happening to our society.

Men don't hurt women in relationships. Women are not victims.

There are collective issues that we work through together in society (like slavery, equal rights and abusive relationships) but they get passed down from our parents not from the opposite sex.

[zazen]

Same world as Fernanda it seems. Not sure what world black pill, red pill, incels live in either or where we hear the common phrase where have all the good men gone.  A subset of men have women pining after them or hurt/frustrated by them for not committing and then bringing that baggage to their next relationships. Average guys don't hurt women but certain men can and do, intentionally or not. These average guys then have to deal with that baggage, and have the negatives of those men projected onto all men.  Dissatisfaction in these relationships are higher as she compares him to the past 'alpha guy' that got away. Or these women put off relationships completely because they don't want to settle.Their version of good men are those top 10-20% who don't have the incentive to settle down, and who imprinted on these girls blinding them to the average guy who is actually a good nice guy at heart and just wants a loyal appreciative girlfriend. 

 

Not saying to identify with victimhood, men or women. These are collective issues as you mentioned, and this forum is a place to identify problems, figure out solutions and actualise ourselves. 

 

One extreme is stage red traditionalism which is very repressive, relationships were out of control than choice. What we have now in the liberal west seems to have swung the pendulum to the other extreme which was needed to shake us out of the negatives of tradition. But now whats the balance, we can't have the pendulum swing back. The mens movements seem to be backlashing and wanting traditionalism to come back in full force ie men say women with only low body counts are relationship material, they can't have friends of the opposite sex etc. These are frustrated men struggling in the dating market. 

Edited June 1, 2022 by zazen

[universe]

If you want to actualize yourself get out and get your dream partner. Everything else is overanalizing.

The emotional heartbreaks (if you encounter them) are not to be avoided but to be felt through. When do you think you will achieve Growth? By sitting in your room armchair philosophying about dating or by going through all the ups and downs of life. Experiencing deep connection, sadness, loss, joy and terrible heartbreak?

This is a very foundational concept Leo explains in this video.