Who's talking?

[Closed]

I notice myself talking for hours without any ''input'' from me, so who could be talking then? Who's generating the words and putting them into coherent sentences for other people to understand?

[thisintegrated]

The desire for stimulation is to blame.

[ZzzleepingBear]

I am

[PepperBlossoms]

It does seem like a pretty weird phenomenon - the voices and images in the head.... It is like our mouth isn't moving to create the words but we still hear them even though our ears aren't involved and our eyes don't have to be open or closed to see the images.. but I guess sound and visual is processed in the head and may happen in the same place as the internal dialogue and imagery.  Regarding weird phenomenons - Existence seems weird too.

But the internal processes - it is like they are happening and we aren't doing anything to make them happen, or aren't aware of the work involved.  Or the stuff happening in the "external", it is like it is happening too but we don't seem to be aware of the work involved there either.

So is there any work actually happening or is it all happening on its own?

[VeganAwake]

On 4/20/2022 at 5:15 PM, Closed said:

I notice myself talking for hours without any ''input'' from me, so who could be talking then? Who's generating the words and putting them into coherent sentences for other people to understand?

The body!!

[Breakingthewall]

If you mean the mental talking, It is the ego, an entity made of images and words that has attachment as its emotional basis. It is working all the time and cannot stop for a second, since it has mixed with you as a kind of symbiote. you and this entity are inseparable, you are mixed, but you must separate as it has grown too large and threatens to devour itself. this symbiote in another context, I don't know, in the Paleolithic, sure would be bearable, but today its dimension is impossible. he is a real monster. He leaves no room for anything but himself. the alchemical process that must occur is complicated. first the monster himself has to realize his monstrosity, and then he has, in a real act of surrender, to accept his place. recognize its unreal character. difficult since you, the one who is thinking that the voice should be silent, are the voice itself. you can't make yourself shut up. Because the will of try to shut up come from the voice, so is making the voice stronger. You have to play a subtle game with yourself. To cross the door you can't want to cross the door. 

you can only watch all the time, day after day, every minute.  what you are and what you say, why you do it, how you twist yourself, make yourself aware of your terror of silence, your need to grab handles. until one day, suddenly, for a few seconds... poof! It is gone. you are at the bottom of you, of reality, the void. that is. there are no words. then it comes back again, but it's already less mixed. more detached. And the void attracts you more and more

Edited April 23, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[Yobenm]

Your question is kinda insightful because for me it's hard to imagine myself just observing myself talking. Every other process can feel automatic at times, especially after meditation. Feelings and thoughts especially. And movement when I try to understand when exactly I initiate it. But talking to people is always conscious. Way to conscious even. I always feel I don't have anything to say when I would like to.

This is really though provoking. No wonder we have a hard time comunicating awakening to others when our base experience can be so different.

[VeganAwake]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

If you mean the mental talking, It is the ego, an entity made of images and words that has attachment as its emotional basis. It is working all the time and cannot stop for a second, since it has mixed with you as a kind of symbiote. you and this entity are inseparable, you are mixed, but you must separate as it has grown too large and threatens to devour itself. this symbiote in another context, I don't know, in the Paleolithic, sure would be bearable, but today its dimension is impossible. he is a real monster. He leaves no room for anything but himself. the alchemical process that must occur is complicated. first the monster himself has to realize his monstrosity, and then he has, in a real act of surrender, to accept his place. recognize its unreal character. difficult since you, the one who is thinking that the voice should be silent, are the voice itself. you can't make yourself shut up. Because the will of try to shut up come from the voice, so is making the voice stronger. You have to play a subtle game with yourself. To cross the door you can't want to cross the door. 

you can only watch all the time, day after day, every minute.  what you are and what you say, why you do it, how you twist yourself, make yourself aware of your terror of silence, your need to grab handles. until one day, suddenly, for a few seconds... poof! It is gone. you are at the bottom of you, of reality, the void. that is. there are no words. then it comes back again, but it's already less mixed. more detached. And the void attracts you more and more

This is interesting and I totally get what your saying.

You are really giving ego to much credit and awakening to much specialness though.

It's just a simple recognition that this sense of self / ego isn't a real entity.

Just a hey, this big important me isn't actually there.... it's an illusion of self.

Sure when this is clearly recognized it can take some time to unravel and it can feel really strange and or relieving for a while.

I like to describe it as ordinary and simultaneously extraordinary.

❤ 

 

 

 

 

[Breakingthewall]

7 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

Just a hey, this big important me isn't actually there.... it's an illusion of self.

True, but you can't see that since you are it. It's very twisted. imagine that you are the content of a glass where there is water mixed with ink. I tell you: hey, the ink is not real, don't you see? but you cannot distinguish the water from the ink, you are the mixture. You're going to make a thousand assumptions that the ink is this and the real is that, but you can't see it until they mechanically separate. there is nothing they can tell you that will make you see it because the one who listens to it and processes it is the water mixed with the ink.  

It is another thing to see, when they are separated, that the water is not limited to the glass. it is simply what there is without limitation or definition, but as long as it is mixed with the ink, its outline is defined and it is impossible to see that

[zurew]

On 2022. 04. 21. at 0:15 AM, Closed said:

I notice myself talking for hours without any ''input'' from me, so who could be talking then? Who's generating the words and putting them into coherent sentences for other people to understand?

You subconscious mind doing that. You are on autopilot, just like when you drive you zone out and 10-20 minutes later you don't know how you got there, but you got there safely, cause your subconscious mind did everything for you without any focus required from your end.

This is also one of the reasons why we can multitask.

[VeganAwake]

4 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

True, but you can't see that since you are it. It's very twisted. imagine that you are the content of a glass where there is water mixed with ink. I tell you: hey, the ink is not real, don't you see? but you cannot distinguish the water from the ink, you are the mixture. You're going to make a thousand assumptions that the ink is this and the real is that, but you can't see it until they mechanically separate. there is nothing they can tell you that will make you see it because the one who listens to it and processes it is the water mixed with the ink.  

It is another thing to see, when they are separated, that the water is not limited to the glass. it is simply what there is without limitation or definition, but as long as it is mixed with the ink, its outline is defined and it is impossible to see that

That is still just the illusion of self but now identifying as everything. It's a very sneaky illusion in that sense.

This is the apparent issue of not cleary seeing through or uprooting this illusion of self in initial self enquiry.

It's what's often referred to as spiritual ego. It will convincingly say, well since I'm not the limited human body-mind organism, I must be everything then, I must be that which holds said phenomenon. 

Simply put: When the ego senses it's demise/recognition of its own unreality, it scrambles under the radar for its new higher proclaimed identity. This new special identity is Spiritual Ego sometimes called the higher self.....but it's just Ego functioning extra sneakily.

❤ 

 

[Breakingthewall]

27 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

well since I'm not the limited human body-mind organism, I must be everything then,

Well, you are, right? Obviously you exist. 

Edited April 24, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[VeganAwake]

4 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Well, you are, right? Obviously you exist. 

I will do my best to explain this experience:

Your mother's body gave birth to that body there.

It was given a name, birth certificate and social security number.

And from a very young age that body was told that it was a separate individual named wally.(let's call it wally for communication purposes?)

Everything the wally body experiences and learns, enhances wally's 'sense of self'.

As the wally body grows and experiences, so does wally's 'sense of self'.

The wally 'sense of self' experience also gives rise to the experience of other 'separate self's' out there in the world.(mirror effect)

The wally body feels like, I am here and everything else is out there.

One day the wally body starts feeling separate and alone, like something is missing and so it starts looking for something to remedy this situation.(seeking)

One day the wally body hears about something amazing called spiritual enlightenment.

This must be the answer the wally body exclaims!!!

So the wally body starts watching videos and reading spiritual texts. It starts meditation and jumping through all kinds of spiritual hoops which it has heard could bring about spiritual enlightenment for wally.

But what the wally doesn't recognize is that this Entire set-up of feeling separate and alone & that something is missing is a complete False Claim or Misunderstanding.

See wally isn't actually real. He feels real and separate but this is an illusion of the wally self.

See nothing that the wally body learned or experienced growing up actually equals or amounts to a real separate wally individual. 

There IS a real conditioned body called wally but that centered innermost sense of individuality is just an illusory construct held within the wally body's mind.

In fact if that wally body hits its head hard enough, it could completely forget its entire conceptual identity.

Simply put:

Anything that wally attempts to do to attain so-called spiritual enlightenment, only reinforces and sustains the illusion of wally being a real separate individual in the first place.

So in that sense the entire spiritual paradigm is dualistic and completely useless.

Why?

Because there NEVER was a separate wally in the first place that even could become spiritually enlightened.

There is no separate wally self; there is no thing that realizes its not the wally self; there is no thing that realizes it's everything; and there is no thing that realizes its nothing.

It was all just Maya, the illusion of the self spinning in circles.

Meaning nothing ever actually happened, it only seemed to.

It's freedom for No One!!

Which is simultaneously nothing and everything!!

 

❤ 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2022 by VeganAwake

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, VeganAwake said:

It was all just Maya, the illusion of the self spinning in circles

So it was at the end . You don't understand. You are. Period. nothing related to the conceptual idea of myself, or if I remain a vegetable if I get hit on the head. I am. it is most obvious. the sense of the separate self, as you say, is false, since separate means contrasted with what is not me. there is no contrast. Only be. I could be shot in the head right now, which would still be exactly the same, only without all the mental paraphernalia that goes around in my head (which would not be a great loss either btw) there is only the being. being cannot not be. there is no enlightenment to look for, it is much simpler. it is realizing that you are, and you are limitless depth, right now. simply remove the limitations you impose, all your ideas about what is and is not, and voila! this. Now. Depth, life, that's you are. 

Edited April 24, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[VeganAwake]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

So it was at the end . You don't understand. You are. Period. nothing related to the conceptual idea of myself, or if I remain a vegetable if I get hit on the head. I am. it is most obvious. the sense of the separate self, as you say, is false, since separate means contrasted with what is not me. there is no contrast. Only be. I could be shot in the head right now, which would still be exactly the same, only without all the mental paraphernalia that goes around in my head (which would not be a great loss either btw) there is only the being. being cannot not be. there is no enlightenment to look for, it is much simpler. it is realizing that you are, and you are limitless depth, right now. simply remove the limitations you impose, all your ideas about what is and is not, and voila! this. Now. Depth, life, that's you are. 

Then that is what is being experienced there. It's whole, complete and perfect.  ? 

[WelcometoReality]

7 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

Simply put: When the ego senses it's demise/recognition of its own unreality, it scrambles under the radar for its new higher proclaimed identity. This new special identity is Spiritual Ego sometimes called the higher self.....but it's just Ego functioning extra sneakily.

❤ 

It might seem like a never ending cycle of death and rebirth at some point. The ego constantly reforming its identity to maintain itself. ?

[VeganAwake]

27 minutes ago, WelcometoReality said:

It might seem like a never ending cycle of death and rebirth at some point. The ego constantly reforming its identity to maintain itself. ?

Never really thought about it that way, very interesting. ?

Here it kind of felt like constricted or trapped energy in the body which was upholding this self construct was released back into everything.

And so in that sense it would be completely normal to feel like the identity shifted from the body/mind organism back into infinity or something.

Just became obvious that this identity game was complete BS. ?

❤ 

Edited April 24, 2022 by VeganAwake

[Breakingthewall]

3 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

Then that is what is being experienced there. It's whole, complete and perfect.  ? 

Yeah...agree at the end! ?

[WelcometoReality]

9 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

Never really thought about it that way, very interesting. ?

Here it kind of felt like constricted or trapped energy in the body which was upholding this self construct was released back into everything.

And so in that sense it would be completely normal to feel like the identity shifted from the body/mind organism back into infinity or something.

Just became obvious that this identity game was complete BS. ?

❤ 

Yeah, identification can take the form of anything or nothing, a teaching or a feeling. In that sense it's hard to point to. I use the word rigidness because identification is like rocks in a river. The water can flow better without them.

[VeganAwake]

8 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

Yeah, identification can take the form of anything or nothing, a teaching or a feeling. In that sense it's hard to point to. I use the word rigidness because identification is like rocks in a river. The water can flow better without them.

Nice,

Here I would describe identification like an unexplored assumption or misunderstanding, a real & unreal experience.... J krishnamurti & Osho had a lot of great discussions in this area!

It seems difficult to point out because it's not a particular thing, it's a bunch of smaller things that seem to make up this big unreal identity construct.

And it's more of an internal recognition as opposed to an external behavioral change.

For example:  An apparent someone who recognizes their personalized identification as unreal, will still remember how to sell real estate, save money or operate a crane, still prefer white rice over brown or coffee over tea. What I'm saying is there will still seem to be a character with a personal identification or preferences. In other words it wouldn't be able to be pointed out!

As far as identification taking the form as nothing, well that just wouldn't be nothingness. But it could be a concept of it.

❤