Transitioning vs self-love for gender dysphoria?

[thisintegrated]

10 minutes ago, zurew said:

I don't know if there is a why for this, but for most people experience about this that there is a very consistent experience of ones finite gender identity. So it just is, my reason would imply that i can have impact on it.

 

But where is this preference is coming from? Could you change this preference? I assume your answer will be yes, then the question would be to go one layer deeper, why wouldn't you change it? 

The reason why i ask so many questions around this, is beacuse it seems that you put more value on one gender compared to the other. So i assume if we go down to the "axiomatic level", there will be things that just are without any reason supporting them whatsoever. Thats not a problem though, that would be a recognition that on the deeper layers you have some variables, that you can't really control, they just are and those variables decides what you will preference over other things, and it can create you a subjective experience of yourself (so there would be a really long causality chain, that goes back to your desires and connected to your subjective finite ego experience).

So you imply that basically its about your desire what you want to be in a certain moment, and right now you want to be a man , because you prefer being a man. Can you have direct impact on your desires?

It's not that I want to be a man.  The male body is just objectively better at what bodies are meant to do:  Move and deal with physical forces.

It's true that you can't easily change your preferences, but I think the more things you're capable of, the better.  If you're mentally just one gender, that's limiting, and objectively worse than being able to change it at will.  I gained new capabilities after doing a lot of acid.  I think it's totally doable to gain new abilities, but selectively shutting some down is maybe harder, and offers no benefits.

Edited April 22, 2022 by thisintegrated

[zurew]

10 hours ago, thisintegrated said:

It's true that you can't easily change your preferences, but I think the more things you're capable of, the better.

So lets say you have a woman's body, but your desire is to have a man's body. Would you transition then?

Because that would be the argument to make for trans people. We actually realised in this conversation that you can't really have impact on your preferences, so if you have a strong desire for some things over another, then you will want to take actions towards it.

To be more specific you can preference to have a woman's body when in reality you have a man's body. So if you can't change your preference, then a reasonable thing would be to transition, to be more aligned with your preferences.

[gettoefl]

maybe obvious but i hope i am not being naive or controversial to add

sex is who society say i am ... based on among other things the binary designation given on my birth certificate

gender is who i say i am and is by no means limited to the two sexes and is no one else's matter but my own

up to this point in human history, sex has been what is all important ... from now on it seems gender will gain more and more prominence 

the question is, should you need to wait until adulthood to declare your gender and have that gender honored

or at what age should you have that right

[thisintegrated]

8 hours ago, zurew said:

So lets say you have a woman's body, but your desire is to have a man's body. Would you transition then?

Depends on why I'd want a male body.  For a dick?  For more testosterone?  More body hair?

It's unlikely I'd feel a need for all such things.

 

8 hours ago, zurew said:

We actually realised in this conversation that you can't really have impact on your preferences

You can.  There's psychedelics, which can help you see new perspectives.  And tastes develop over time anyway.  What attracted you a decade ago has probably changed , somewhat, by now.

 

8 hours ago, zurew said:

if you have a strong desire for some things over another, then you will want to take actions towards it.

You may want an expensive car, but that doesn't mean you will take actions towards this.  It's rarely practical or logical, and the cons will likely outweigh the pros.  Sometimes it's better to just grow up, and realize your desires are childish/egoistic/dumb.

 

8 hours ago, zurew said:

To be more specific you can preference to have a woman's body when in reality you have a man's body. So if you can't change your preference, then a reasonable thing would be to transition, to be more aligned with your preferences.

Except it's not reasonable, in most cases.  The problem isn't the gender, but inflexibility, as well as the dysfunctional mentality of "sex/appearance determines how you are allowed to act".  You wouldn't say it's reasonable to buy an expensive car just because you think they're cool.  The problem wouldn't be your boring old car, but your materialistic way of thinking.  Getting the new car wouldn't solve anything, it would make it easier to avoid solving the actual problem, temporarily.

[zurew]

1 hour ago, thisintegrated said:

Depends on why I'd want a male body.  For a dick?  For more testosterone?  More body hair?

It's unlikely I'd feel a need for all such things.

For the reasons why you want to have a male body right now. Imagine being trapped in a woman's body right now, having the same abitions and goals that you have . You know that you could not achieve you goals or you would have a significantly less chance to achieve your goals by staying in a woman's body.

 

43 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

You can.  There's psychedelics, which can help you see new perspectives.  And tastes develop over time anyway.  What attracted you a decade ago has probably changed , somewhat, by now.

For instance, could you change your preference about what kind of woman you like just by using psychedelics? Maybe using psychedelics would change some of your prefereces ,but you couldn't use it in a calculated way. It may change some of your random preferences, but you wouldn't be able to know those beforehand, and you wouldn't know how it would change them.

So basically you can't change your preferencies in any calculated way. You are a blackbox yourself, there are different kind of inputs that you can consciously choose, but you won't know, what the outputs will be.

46 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

You may want an expensive car, but that doesn't mean you will take actions towards this.  It's rarely practical or logical, and the cons will likely outweigh the pros.  Sometimes it's better to just grow up, and realize your desires are childish/egoistic/dumb.

I partly agree with this. But when you have a desire that is really intense and doesn't go away, and constantly with you, then saying that that particular desire is childish would not change the fact, that you have a really highly intense desire towards something that won't ever go away.

48 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

You wouldn't say it's reasonable to buy an expensive car just because you think they're cool.  The problem wouldn't be your boring old car, but your materialistic way of thinking.  Getting the new car wouldn't solve anything, it would make it easier to avoid solving the actual problem, temporarily.

Yeah i wouldn't ,but this is different. You are not identitifed with that expensive car, but it seems that it is the best solution so far for these trans people to change their body to be inline with their gender. 

Imagine this, to sense how intense it could be for them:

You are a man, who is hetereosexual . You have a very high libido and you constantly want to fuck every attractive woman. Every time you get home you have a harem of really attractive girls . You see them all naked, they look like exactly what you prefer in a woman. But there is a catch, you can't fuck them and you can't fuck anyone else, you can't jerk off to them or anyone else and (they won't give you handjobs or blowjobs). You have two choices, you can choose to get a pill, and with that pill you could change your sexual preference , so you wouldn't be bothered by the naked woman in your house anymore or you could live your life in a miserable way, where you can't do anything, because you are constantly in a lustful state. To say, that the desire to take the pill is childish, or just to let go of it i think wouldn't be accurate imo. 

Would you take the pill or not?

[thisintegrated]

1 hour ago, zurew said:

For the reasons why you want to have a male body right now. Imagine being trapped in a woman's body right now, having the same abitions and goals that you have . You know that you could not achieve you goals or you would have a significantly less chance to achieve your goals by staying in a woman's body.

I want to keep my male body right now because that's what I've spent all my life using and am familiar with.

 

1 hour ago, zurew said:

You are a man, who is hetereosexual . You have a very high libido and you constantly want to fuck every attractive woman. Every time you get home you have a harem of really attractive girls . You see them all naked, they look like exactly what you prefer in a woman. But there is a catch, you can't fuck them and you can't fuck anyone else, you can't jerk off to them or anyone else and (they won't give you handjobs or blowjobs). You have two choices, you can choose to get a pill, and with that pill you could change your sexual preference , so you wouldn't be bothered by the naked woman in your house anymore or you could live your life in a miserable way, where you can't do anything, because you are constantly in a lustful state. To say, that the desire to take the pill is childish, or just to let go of it i think wouldn't be accurate imo. 

Would you take the pill or not?

You mean if I couldn't fuck them because I'd have no dick?  I believe it's called "scissoring".  I'd learn to enjoy woman-on-woman sex, or even just kissing.  Maybe I'd buy the girls some strap-ons and let them have their way with me?‍♂️

There are always alternatives.  If a femboy wants to feel like he's getting fucked like a woman, bussy is perfectly fine.  

[zurew]

15 hours ago, thisintegrated said:

You mean if I couldn't fuck them because I'd have no dick?  I believe it's called "scissoring".  I'd learn to enjoy woman-on-woman sex, or even just kissing.  Maybe I'd buy the girls some strap-ons and let them have their way with me?‍♂️

There are always alternatives.  If a femboy wants to feel like he's getting fucked like a woman, bussy is perfectly fine.  

Not because you don't have a dick, it was just a silly hypothetical. I wanted to phrase it in a way, where you have no alternatives, you either accept that difficult situation or make a change (take the pill).

Just like with trans people, they don't really have much a of a chance, they either accept their difficult situation and won't transition but they will be bothered by it for the rest of their life, or they transition.

Edited April 23, 2022 by zurew

[gettoefl]

also bear in mind it is not merely a matter of who you are attracted to

being trans would be like being born with no nose and feeling less than human ... oh to have a nose and feel a whole person ... sure you could live life without a nose but this would cause massive issues with confidence and acceptance

if a child was born nose-less, no one would hesitate to allow the child who so wanted to have the procedure in order to remedy this gross disfigurement

furthermore as i understand it a trans person will want to be their desired gender even if they live a completely solitary existence ... and i think this is true of most if not all of us - if we were required to live as the gender we don't identify with, life would be utterly unbearable

Edited April 23, 2022 by gettoefl

[zurew]

8 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

furthermore as i understand it a trans person will want to be their desired gender even if they live a completely solitary existence ... and i think this is true of most if not all of us - if we were required to live as the gender we don't identify with, life would be utterly unbearable

Agreed.