Transitioning vs self-love for gender dysphoria?

[LSD-Rumi]

Transitioning cannot go right for everyone and may leave indiviuals with rather strange and unattractive bodies, not mentioning the chronic use of hormones and surgries. I think other modalities like psychotherapy should be put in use too. If you are not happy with your current sex, maybe you can learn to love it and accept it? I know this argument is used by conservatives to gaslight trans people but there is some truth to it. I could Imagine myself learn to behave, feel and act like the oppoiste gender, honestly I would rather do that than the hassle of hormones, hair removal and other things.

P.S: This is not coming from a transphobic position.

Edited April 20, 2022 by LSD-Rumi

[zurew]

3 hours ago, LSD-Rumi said:

Transitioning cannot go right for everyone and may leave indiviuals with rather strange and unattractive bodies, not mentioning the chronic use of hormones and surgries.

With good amount of surgeries almost anyone can be made an attractive male or female.

3 hours ago, LSD-Rumi said:

I could Imagine myself learn to behave, feel and act like the oppoiste gender, honestly I would rather do that than the hassle of hormones, hair removal and other things.

You could, but most of these people are hating their bodies. I believe the cause for most suicides on this area is that these people cannot afford surgery and hormon therapy, so they would rather kill themselves than to live in a body that feels alien to them. I think it is much easier to change your body than to change you gender identity. I don't believe most people are capable changing their identity, and i wouldn't expect them to do so. 

With that being said, i think there is some validity to your argument, because i don't believe that transness only exclusively comes from biological factors, but i think there could be some cases where transness comes from social factors. I would put much more weight on the biological factors though. The reason why i think about social factors as well, is because of the question around destransitioning.

 I think there are some cases, where some people tried being trans because they felt it is cool or because they were curious about it, and after they experienced, they decided to rather detransition because it didn't feel right for them.(In this last sentence, i talked about people who didn't have trans indentity, they just tried to be one)

Edited April 20, 2022 by zurew

[LSD-Rumi]

6 hours ago, zurew said:

With good amount of surgeries almost anyone can be made an attractive male or female.

Yeah but how much would that cost?

 

6 hours ago, zurew said:

You could, but most of these people are hating their bodies. I believe the cause for most suicides on this area is that these people cannot afford surgery and hormon therapy, so they would rather kill themselves than to live in a body that feels alien to them

And that's exactly why the Self-love line of thoughts should  be more promoted and popularized. Self-love is one of the basic princples in personal development but we seem to totally ignore it when it comes to gender dysphoria.

[thisintegrated]

Transitioning is only really an option if you're still a child, and no kid can be trusted with such a choice, so it's never really an option.

With future technology it may be an option, but for now it's not.

 

Gender is purely an ego thing, and if one hopes to ever self-actualize then it shouldn't really matter much anyway.  Just another delusion to overcome, like everything else.

[thisintegrated]

5 minutes ago, Roy said:

I've always pondered how one can do serious development and work on their ego, while also being in conflict about gender or other personal issues. It seems incompatible to me.

To be doing deep work on yourself means deconstructing all your bullshit identities and thought stories, while the whole gender/trans thing appears to be about constructing and maintaining identities.

I wonder if we have any trans posters on this forum, I'd love to hear their perspective and experience.

The aim is not to kill the ego, but to develop it into something good/flexible/light so life runs through it without getting stuck.

The only thing you want to kill is fear.

 

Edited April 21, 2022 by thisintegrated

[Dryas]

Destiny had this article playing in the background in one of his streams

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/07/when-a-child-says-shes-trans/561749/

I think it's a pretty decent attempt to make sense of these issues

[Carl-Richard]

45 minutes ago, Roy said:

I've always pondered how one can do serious development and work on their ego, while also being in conflict about gender or other personal issues. It seems incompatible to me.

To be doing deep work on yourself inevitably means deconstructing all your identities and thought stories, while the whole gender/trans thing appears to be about constructing and maintaining identities.

I wonder if we have any trans posters on this forum, I'd love to hear their perspective and experience.

That is my intuition as well, but I also think that we can't know for sure how deep it goes (until we get to hear from say a trans or ex-trans spiritual teacher).

[zurew]

8 hours ago, LSD-Rumi said:

Yeah but how much would that cost?

Thats exactly the problem that it is very costly.

8 hours ago, thisintegrated said:

Transitioning is only really an option if you're still a child, and no kid can be trusted with such a choice, so it's never really an option.

Not totally. If we can find physical aspects and characteristics that defines and correlates with certain genders, than discovering those aspects in a child can sort of justify the transitioning and you wouldn't need to trust the young child why he/she want to transition.

So basically, if gender has biological 'footprints' to it, then i think tranisiton can be justified, but if we can only rely on some child's subjective experience about themselves, then yeah i agree with you, that transitioning isn't really an adequate solution.

8 hours ago, thisintegrated said:

Gender is purely an ego thing, and if one hopes to ever self-actualize then it shouldn't really matter much anyway.  Just another delusion to overcome, like everything else.

Maybe its purely and ego thing but maybe it has physical characteristics to it. If it has physical characteristics to it, then transcending it is a much harder process.

Also, just think about it, even if you realise yourself as God, you don't live your everday experience from that level of consciousness. We are not talking about just a brief moment of experiencing your true self, but we are talking about someone's everyday experience of him/herself. So even if these people could transcend their ego-s totally, i don't think that would have that ordinary effect on their every day subjective experience of themselves, but it might.

8 hours ago, Roy said:

I've always pondered how one can do serious development and work on their ego, while also being in conflict about gender or other personal issues. It seems incompatible to me.

To be doing deep work on yourself inevitably means deconstructing all your identities and thought stories, while the whole gender/trans thing appears to be about constructing and maintaining identities.

I don't think that you can fully transcend your identity about gender, when we are talking about your everyday life. Would you be able to fluidly be a woman for 3 month, then be a man for 3 month an hop around with it, just by doing spiritual work?

Sexuality is also part of your identity, would you be able to just randomly be attracted to animals or other creatures or items or anything? I don't think that you can just transcend those aspects either.

If a very high level consciousness could be maintained it might be possible to do, but i don't think we can expect from these people to just transcend these aspects deeply rooted to their identity. Your solution might be good in the future though.

[zurew]

3 minutes ago, Roy said:

I think you completely misunderstood my post. I'm not trying to provide any "solution". It's not about transcending identity or changing sexuality, so that you can jump around freely.

Yeah sorry, i was completely focused on the solution, so i assumed you were talking about that, but you were talking about spiritual work, and how this issue blocking the spiritual development.

 

19 minutes ago, Roy said:

To let go and transcend the self is to start to realize how none of that stuff actually matters. It cuts like a dagger to the very heart of all the games being played and the bullshit of the ego.

From the absolute pov, yeah none of this actually matter, not even a little bit. But, when we are talking about everyday finite experience of the ego it matters a lot, especially on your mental health. I think most people would be bothered if they wouldn't be treated as the gender or identity that they are indentified as (i would add people here who have had some awakenings before, but they are not in a high consciousness state constantly). The only one i could see who wouldn't be bothered by it, is someone who can maintain a very high level of consciousness and a blissed state.

So my point is that, as long as we can't maintain a high level of consciousness, we will need to deal with these problems in a different way imo. That does not mean ,that we shouldn't advocate for spiritual work though.

38 minutes ago, Roy said:

This is the truth, but it can be highly offensive to point out that truth to those struggling with identity, as from their POV it's ALL that matters. It's the only thing that matters.

Yes, and its a super sensitive topic for these people for sure, and its super hard to talk about it, because anyone can get so triggered so quickly, even if your intention wasn't to trigger anyone.

[thisintegrated]

10 hours ago, zurew said:

Not totally. If we can find physical aspects and characteristics that defines and correlates with certain genders, than discovering those aspects in a child can sort of justify the transitioning and you wouldn't need to trust the young child why he/she want to transition.

Boys can be feminine.  Femininity doesn't suggest they're actually "a female at heart, and should have their dick cut off" or whatever.

Can you think of a single thing that would differentiate a fem-boy and a boy who's actually a girl?
 

Edited April 21, 2022 by thisintegrated

[puporing]

Not sure about people who actually do the physical transition. But to me there's no need for it unless it involves a strong dissonance with one's sexual identity. One can enjoy being masculine or feminine at one's free will when you realize all that is a construct. I mean if one goes through the physical transition that limits you again to that "gender", and reinforcing the idea that we don't possess both the feminine and masculine within ourselves (to varying degrees), and that we're ultimately free to "shape shift". 

(Apologies in advance if this is insensitive of me to say.)

Edited April 21, 2022 by puporing

[zurew]

22 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Can you think of a single thing that would differentiate a fem-boy and a boy who's actually a girl?

Lets differentiate between gender and sex. Sex would mean the biological aspects to your body, and gender would mean your subjective experience of yourself. The difference is this in my opinion: femininity is the act how you behave in the world, but gender is about how you subjectively see your own self. So for instance, i could act in a number of feminine ways, but i wouldn't be able to willingly change my gender (to see myself as a woman).

The real question to get closer to the roots is this: How does one create a gender identity, what is the process to it?

To answer your question from an outsider perspective. I wouldn't be able to differentiate between the two people you describe, because from an outside perspective there would be no tangible difference between a highly feminine man, and a transwoman.

Again im referring back to my original point, if gender identity has some biological traceable characteristics to it, then we will be able to differentiate between the two people that you mentioned above. This point is important when we are talking about children transitioning. Because again iam agreeing with you on that, if we only have somone's subjective experience to decide if a kid should transition or not, thats not reliable at all, and there could be so much negative cost to it in the future for him/her.

But if gender really has some tracable biological charateristics to it, then it suddenly becomes a releavant subject, because if a kid goes through puberty, then this transitioning thing becomes a really hard problem.

31 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Boys can be feminine.  Femininity doesn't suggest they're actually "a female at heart, and should have their dick cut off" or whatever.

Thats true. But most feminine man wouldn't want to do transitioning.

[thisintegrated]

5 minutes ago, zurew said:

Lets differentiate between gender and sex. Sex would mean the biological aspects to your body, and gender would mean your subjective experience of yourself. The difference is this in my opinion: femininity is the act how you behave in the world, but gender is about how you subjectively see your own self. So for instance, i could act in a number of feminine ways, but i wouldn't be able to willingly change my gender (to see myself as a woman).

The real question to get closer to the roots is this: How does one create a gender identity, what is the process to it?

To answer your question from an outsider perspective. I wouldn't be able to differentiate between the two people you describe, because from an outside perspective there would be no tangible difference between a highly feminine man, and a transwoman.

Again im referring back to my original point, if gender identity has some biological traceable characteristics to it, then we will be able to differentiate between the two people that you mentioned above. This point is important when we are talking about children transitioning. Because again iam agreeing with you on that, if we only have somone's subjective experience to decide if a kid should transition or not, thats not reliable at all, and there could be so much negative cost to it in the future for him/her.

But if gender really has some tracable biological charateristics to it, then it suddenly becomes a releavant subject, because if a kid goes through puberty, then this transitioning thing becomes a really hard problem.

Thats true. But most feminine man wouldn't want to do transitioning.

Men and women used to have different roles in society.

Men and women became known for the roles they performed.

Over time, each sex became better at performing its expected role, and started identifying with that role.

Now roles aren't a thing, and women even have an advantage over men at the things men used to be relied upon.  Salary isn't determined by strength, but by the ability to sit down and do physically easy work.  The problem is, we still have gender roles deeply ingrained in society, so people have become confused and unsure of what their identity should be as the identity expected of them doesn't seem to have any basis for existing in the modern world.  A boy might see that males are expected to be strong, he may recognize that he isn't strong, and may conclude that his gender is wrong.  And if he's born in Sweden, he'll have his dick cut off?‍♂️

It's really not that complicated.

[zurew]

21 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

A boy might see that males are expected to be strong, he may recognize that he isn't strong, and may conclude that his gender is wrong.

And if he's born in Sweden, he'll have his dick cut off?‍♂️

It's really not that complicated.

Then why is that most feminine man won't transition? If its really that straight forward.

Again i agree with most of your assesment, because there are definitely some cases, where the cause comes from society, the question is all cause comes from society and roles, or  gender identity has some biological traits to it.  Because in your arguments you assume, that it doesn't have any (and i assume that it could have, unless you can make an argument that can explain why this is happening without a large number outliers). It might have or it might not have tangible biological traits to it, but the study on this topic is just getting started.

Would you be able to willingly change your own gender identity? or i could ask would be be able to change your gender identity, if you would be forced to do it?

Or do you think that developing and changing one's gender identity only possible at a young age?

 

Edited April 21, 2022 by zurew

[thisintegrated]

2 minutes ago, zurew said:

Then why is that most feminine man won't transition? If its really that straight forward.

• Adult = too late.
• Taking hormones isn't ideal.
• Higher social status as a feminine man than as a failed woman.
• Cons usually outweigh the pros.  Rarely passes the cost/benefit analysis.

2 minutes ago, zurew said:

the question is all cause comes from society and roles, or  gender identity has some biological traits to it.  Because in your arguments you assume, that it doesn't have any (and i assume that it could have, unless you can make an argument that can explain why this is happening without a large number outliers). It might have or it might not have. The study on this topic is just getting started.

Doesn't really matter.  It originated during early human evolution, where one sex was responsible for hunting, and the other for raising kids.  One needed strength, the other didn't.  This difference was called gender.  But now there's no difference.  Men don't need strength, and women don't need strength either.  So there's no real purpose to having 2 genders now.

If a man is feminine, all that means is that the man is feminine.  His role in society doesn't change.  He does gain the role of "care giver" or anything else just because he's feminine.

 

2 minutes ago, zurew said:

Would you be able to willingly change your own gender identity? or i could ask would be be able to change your gender identity, if you would be forced to do it?

I feel no need.  But more importantly, I'm too ambitious to change it even if I could do so perfectly well.

Having a gender change would be like admitting defeat to your ego and fear.  It would signify that you've given up on personal development, and that your view of yourself is limited to something as basic and limiting as gender.  Anyone serious about self-actualizing should intend to outgrow identification with the finite, and gender is a pretty useless and limiting identification to have.

 

2 minutes ago, zurew said:

Or do you think that developing and changing one's gender identity only possible at a young age?

With current technology, yeah it's only for kids.  Puberty = too late.

[zurew]

3 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Adult = too late.

I think that most trans people were close to being adults, or they were already adults when they started their transitioning.

 

5 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Having a gender change would be like admitting defeat to your ego and fear.  It would signify that you've given up on personal development, and that your view of yourself is limited to something as basic and limiting as gender.  Anyone serious about self-actualizing should intend to outgrow identification with the finite, and gender is a pretty useless and limiting identification to have.

You can transcend it, but in your everday life, you won't be living from the God-state. So you will basically always have a finite ego, and a finite gender indentity too, that you use to operate in the world, the awakening argument would make sense if you could maintain a very high level of consciousness.

So at the end of the day, the gender problem won't be escaped. Having a gender change wouldn't mean what you wrote. You could just see yourself as a super amibitious, motivated, masculine woman (It shouldn't bother you, because you said it does not matter, right?). But i think if you are honest with yourself, you would say that you are not capable of changing your gender.

Or you could say that you are capable but you don't want to change it, but then we go back to the point, that gender is indeed important for everyone, if it wouldn't be , then you wouldn't be attached to your masculine identity.

 

9 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

So there's no real purpose to having 2 genders now

Having a gender seem to be really important. I think you would be offended or bothered if you would be treated as a little girl by everyone (and your temporary awakening would not matter in this case, because you are operating with a normal level of consciousness).

[thisintegrated]

47 minutes ago, zurew said:

I think that most trans people were close to being adults, or they were already adults when they started their transitioning.

 

You can transcend it, but in your everday life, you won't be living from the God-state. So you will basically always have a finite ego, and a finite gender indentity too, that you use to operate in the world, the awakening argument would make sense if you could maintain a very high level of consciousness.

So at the end of the day, the gender problem won't be escaped. Having a gender change wouldn't mean what you wrote. You could just see yourself as a super amibitious, motivated, masculine woman (It shouldn't bother you, because you said it does not matter, right?). But i think if you are honest with yourself, you would say that you are not capable of changing your gender.

Or you could say that you are capable but you don't want to change it, but then we go back to the point, that gender is indeed important for everyone, if it wouldn't be , then you wouldn't be attached to your masculine identity.

I'm not attached to my masculinity.  Once you transcend gender you stop caring about it.  Both my feminine and masculine sides are balanced and well developed.  What would a sex change change?  It wouldn't change how I see myself.  I'd just have low T and feel miserable all the time.

I think only those with a crazy imbalance from some kind of trauma would feel the need to go all in on femininity.  I'm balanced, and becoming more feminine would only create problems.

 

47 minutes ago, zurew said:

Having a gender seem to be really important. I think you would be offended or bothered if you would be treated as a little girl by everyone (and your temporary awakening would not matter in this case, because you are operating with a normal level of consciousness).

"little girl" isn't a gender.  If I was treated as the CEO of YouTube, who just so happens to be female, I wouldn't really mind?‍♂️ 

[zurew]

5 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

What would a sex change change?  It wouldn't change how I see myself.  I'd just have low T and feel miserable all the time.

Yeah, you would feel miserable, but why? Why does low T is bad, you wouldn't care if gender isnt important for you.

 Thats the argument trans people use why they want to transition. They want sex change because they feel miserable with the sex  type they have. So they basically want to align their sex with their gender. 

6 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

"little girl" isn't a gender.

I gave gender a definition which is this: How one experience and sees him/herself as. So, if you in your everday life see/experience your finite ego as a man, then you would expect to be treated like that.

I want to emphasise the difference between feminine and masculine traits and gender. I described femininity and masculinity as an act(how you talk, what things you do or not do, how you hold yourself etcetc) and i could add certain biological traits to it as well(like having facial hair- masculine trait, having a pussy -feminine trait etc), but gender is different because it is about how you view,experience yourself as.

Again i could act more feminine or change my body to look more feminine, but i wouldn't be able to change my inner experience of my finite ego to experience myself as a woman.

 

So the question would be how you could do a permanent gender change with your will or forcefully, that affects your everyday life, not just like a temporary peak moment like awakening? ( I know awakening has a lot of aspects to it that stay with you, but i am talking about normal everyday level of consciousness)

[thisintegrated]

18 minutes ago, zurew said:

Yeah, you would feel miserable, but why? Why does low T is bad, you wouldn't care if gender isnt important for you.

T = energy and confidence.  I'd lose my will, and means, to live without T.  No T = must find someone with T to take care of you.  That's not an option for me.

 

18 minutes ago, zurew said:

I gave gender a definition which is this: How one experience and sees him/herself as. So, if you in your everday life see/experience your finite ego as a man, then you would expect to be treated like that.

I want to emphasise the difference between feminine and masculine traits and gender. I described femininity and masculinity as an act(how you talk, what things you do or not do, how you hold yourself etcetc) and i could add certain biological traits to it as well(like having facial hair- masculine trait, having a pussy -feminine trait etc), but gender is different because it is about how you view,experience yourself as.

Again i could act more feminine or change my body to look more feminine, but i wouldn't be able to change my inner experience of my finite ego to experience myself as a woman.

Why experience yourself as any gender at all?  I only notice I'm a man when I see myself in the mirror, or when I used to go to the gym.  Otherwise, gender isn't something that ever comes to mind.  Why would it?  If I don't notice my masculine features, I can be anything I want.  I have no limitations, really.  But even in moments I'm more in touch with femininity, I still prefer having a male body.  Just better and more practical in every way.  When I go outside, I don't want to feel like a "prey", I prefer walking with confidence.  And I prefer having the strength of a man, and knowing I'm always safe no matter where I go.  Having the strength of a man and a gender-fluid mind is ideal, imo.

 

18 minutes ago, zurew said:

Again i could act more feminine or change my body to look more feminine, but i wouldn't be able to change my inner experience of my finite ego to experience myself as a woman.

Why not?  That's a limitation.  I can easily do both with no restrictions.  There are times when both are needed.

 

18 minutes ago, zurew said:

So the question would be how you could do a permanent gender change with your will or forcefully, that affects your everyday life, not just like a temporary peak moment like awakening? ( I know awakening has a lot of aspects to it that stay with you, but i am talking about normal everyday level of consciousness)

"permanent" gender change implies a permanent limitation.  What for?  There are good perspectives to be found within every state.

 

Also consider that if you're more feminine, you'll end up attracting more masculine partners.  If I'm attracted to femininity, then I have to be masculine to get what I want.

Edited April 22, 2022 by thisintegrated

[zurew]

3 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Why experience yourself as any gender at all?

I don't know if there is a why for this, but for most people experience about this that there is a very consistent experience of ones finite gender identity. So it just is, my reason would imply that i can have impact on it.

 

4 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

And I prefer having the strength of a man, and knowing I'm always safe no matter where I go.  Having the strength of a man and a gender-fluid mind is ideal, imo.

But where is this preference is coming from? Could you change this preference? I assume your answer will be yes, then the question would be to go one layer deeper, why wouldn't you change it? 

The reason why i ask so many questions around this, is beacuse it seems that you put more value on one gender compared to the other. So i assume if we go down to the "axiomatic level", there will be things that just are without any reason supporting them whatsoever. Thats not a problem though, that would be a recognition that on the deeper layers you have some variables, that you can't really control, they just are and those variables decides what you will preference over other things, and it can create you a subjective experience of yourself (so there would be a really long causality chain, that goes back to your desires and connected to your subjective finite ego experience).

So you imply that basically its about your desire what you want to be in a certain moment, and right now you want to be a man , because you prefer being a man. Can you have direct impact on your desires?