Is Multiculturism Good? The Problem in Sweden

[D2sage]

I was born and live in Sweden. My parents are from Albania.

I have childhood friends from Serbia, Africa, Iran, Iraq, Colombia, Russia and Kyrgyzstan.

In my city, there has never been a fight against black and white. No racism. In fact, racists on the west coast of Sweden are seen as hobos. You can spot a racist easily by the bad odor and unkempt hair.

Then why in some parts of Sweden it is chaos?

Well, if you put all immigrants in one place like they have done in Malmo, Gothenburg and Stockholm for example, it will make it hard to integrate into the Swedish culture. Hard to learn the language when almost nobody speaks Swedish.

Where I live the Government has done a wise choice to spread out all the immigrants. Last summer we got a wave of African refugees. Now they work or study.

Multiculturism is good, segregation is not.

[zurew]

Interesting, thanks for this information. Sweden is one of the most developed countries in Europe,most countries should follow sweden's example, not the 'immigrants are necessarily bad' example.

[ArcticGong]

In light of the crazy riots during the Easter weekend, will we see right wing sentiments grow here in Sweden, unfortunately. 

[Yog]

Well, integration in the assimilative sense is opposite to multiculturalism. Its trying to create a mono-culture.

If one culture sees lets say women as someone that should be subservient to men and the other sees them as free people that can chose what can they do, than both can not exist in the same place without serious conflict. One culture will have to prevail, so in the end you will get more of a mono culture, which is what integration and assimilation does, it pushed foreign cultures towards the parent culture. Now that is just one example, imagine more beliefs and more cultures in the mix.

In this sense it seems to me that despite the convoluted and low conscious ways right wingers can see things, their intuition about multiculturalism is more right than something that a more left leaning person might intuit.

They see it as such and while holding the common "will to power" mindset, will push and fight for their culture to win this conflict. In order to screw a screw into a screw hole you need a screwable bolt that matches the hole and not a hammer-able nail, so they won't try to do that at all even if they were not reacting ideologically and emotionally on this issue. Categories are more static with right wingers and they will always try to find the screw that is needed for that hole and will never try to fit a nail.

Ofc you can try to fit a nail and you might succeed to a certain degree, but it would be better to convert the nails into screwable bolts, that's also a no-no with right wingers, you are reaching cross categories there

Edited April 21, 2022 by Yog

[D2sage]

@ArcticGong At least they caught a bunch. Criminal Network. 0 cops are dead. Last riot was 10 years ago.

Edited April 21, 2022 by D2sage

[Danioover9000]

@D2sage    there's a balancing act between immigration, multiculturalism and segregation. Sometimes areas may need more immigrants living more compacted, other areas they need to be spread out.

[D2sage]

@Danioover9000 True.

[bejapuskas]

10 hours ago, Yog said:

Well, integration in the assimilative sense is opposite to multiculturalism. Its trying to create a mono-culture.

If one culture sees lets say women as someone that should be subservient to men and the other sees them as free people that can chose what can they do, than both can not exist in the same place without serious conflict. One culture will have to prevail, so in the end you will get more of a mono culture, which is what integration and assimilation does, it pushed foreign cultures towards the parent culture. Now that is just one example, imagine more beliefs and more cultures in the mix.

In this sense it seems to me that despite the convoluted and low conscious ways right wingers can see things, their intuition about multiculturalism is more right than something that a more left leaning person might intuit.

They see it as such and while holding the common "will to power" mindset, will push and fight for their culture to win this conflict. In order to screw a screw into a screw hole you need a screwable bolt that matches the hole and not a hammer-able nail, so they won't try to do that at all even if they were not reacting ideologically and emotionally on this issue. Categories are more static with right wingers and they will always try to find the screw that is needed for that hole and will never try to fit a nail.

Ofc you can try to fit a nail and you might succeed to a certain degree, but it would be better to convert the nails into screwable bolts, that's also a no-no with right wingers, you are reaching cross categories there

I agree with this. Immigrants can suffer from feeling like their culture is being lost or that they are not connected to it. An immigrant can learn a language and be able to communicate without asimilating. It gets so boring when everyone becomes white. So many art forms, languages etc. are lost. You do not want that over multiculturalism.

[ArcticGong]

On 2022-04-21 at 4:45 PM, D2sage said:

@ArcticGong At least they caught a bunch. Criminal Network. 0 cops are dead. Last riot was 10 years ago.

100 police were injured by stone pelters. Two political parties are arguing for expanding police authority. One minister suggested that shouting rioters as a acceptable response for stone pelting.
the cultural divide is huge between sections of the society. One side has to yield in this struggle. I don’t see that neither side ready to do that. Those riots were a reality check for many.

[Sri McDonald Trump Maharaj]

If it includes the Israeli police force  

[Leo Gura]

Lack of integration is a problem. Immigrants need to be willing to integrate rather than build their own isolated sub-cultures.

Really, the test for whether to accept immigrants should be one based on their willingness to work to integrate. If you are willing to work to integrate then we will accept you, otherwise stay in your homeland and suffer the consequences.

[Leo Gura]

@Bandman I think the lack of integration is more coming from the immigrants. Many of them don't want to leave their old ways behind.

[Danioover9000]

@bejapuskas

On 21/04/2022 at 6:22 PM, bejapuskas said:

I agree with this. Immigrants can suffer from feeling like their culture is being lost or that they are not connected to it. An immigrant can learn a language and be able to communicate without asimilating. It gets so boring when everyone becomes white. So many art forms, languages etc. are lost. You do not want that over multiculturalism.

   Unfortunately, we are heading to intergrate into some kind of multiculturalism whether we want to or not, so ideally those immigrants should assimilate mostly and quickly into the culture they are living in and be of value somehow, otherwise why leave your homeland to immigrate to a foreign country if you mostly don't want to assimilate? Of course it'll happen gradually because of lingering attachment and some resisting the changes, but ultimately that's a losing battle.

[puporing]

2 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

otherwise why leave your homeland to immigrate to a foreign country if you mostly don't want to assimilate?

Fear of change, like around differing values.

They might like the material/environment aspects but aren't open-minded about the more progressive values. Things like drug decriminalization, feminism, democracy, mental health treatment, sex-ed, sexual liberation, LGBTQ, anti-racism, child slavery (children seen as property), passing the family line, freedom of speech, freedom in general, individualism vs collectivism... tattoos and piercings?  

Edited April 23, 2022 by puporing

[Harikrishnan]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Bandman I think the lack of integration is more coming from the immigrants. Many of them don't want to leave their old ways behind.

@Leo Gura I saw one pic like this on linkedin where a white man posted holding a pluckcard like this to support his collegues who are fasting. Does things like this really help? Coming from a religious background I think it can make them more proud about there culture and religion and in the end, it result in they going to create there own buble of subculture.

[zurew]

5 hours ago, Bandman said:

And not pushing to integrate the immigrants is thus actually beneficial for the big company owners to keep the immigrants in the working class because without integration, how would you climb up the ranks of the established economy.

I think i heard an argument where if there is a country where you can find a lot of jobs which doesn't require any education or skill like mcdonalds and working at other fast food places etc, if those places can't find workers for themselves they will start to increase their salaries higher and higher to attract more people.

The problem is that if the increasing of the salaries still not attract enough people for their places, they will hit a point where they are incentivised to make their place much more automatic, they make it robotical because they don't have much of a choice and eventually those jobs will be lost. So people who don't have any education and skills in that country will have a much more harder time working anywhere, because everything will be automatized and the job market will be shifted.

But, if you have immigrants who are willingly do those jobs, then these companies won't be incentivised to automatize their whole system, because its cheaper to just have a few workers for a low salary, than to invenst in a system for millions of dollars and wait for years to earn back the spent money.

[Shawn Philips]

In very socially advanced countries in northern Europe, actual and previous generations neved had issues with uncivilized behaviours. I know in some countries mothers keep their babies outside or a bar or restaurant without being worried if somebody would kidnap them.

There are literally shops where there isnt a employee, and people just enter, pick a box of eggs and leave the money there. Everybody is polite and respectful.

In contrast migrants that come from poor countries act from a very low conscious paradigm of survivalism. Id say stage beige from spyral dynamics. They act selfishly, wild and from an ego perspective. Morality dont mean much for them.

So wenever a native swedish, finnish, german witness such a brutal animalistic behaviour he doesnt know how to act, because never in his life had to deal with these situations, so most of them get shocked or paralized.

Thats why so much local kids are bullied by migrants, people is robbed, abused.. The cultural contrast is brutal and so the integration very difficult.

[Girzo]

@Shawn Philips Are you paraphrasing the plot of the movie Demolition Man? 

 

[ArcticGong]

12 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Bandman I think the lack of integration is more coming from the immigrants. Many of them don't want to leave their old ways behind.

Especially where two red lines intersect. Burning books is legal under freedom of speech in many democratic first world countries ,while burning a Quran is a no go for Islamic people. On the Swedish side doesn’t anyone like what Rasmus Paludan did. However, banning burning a holy book is consider an infringement on freedom of speech.  In other cases are many host countries flexible to immigrants customs, when it comes to encourage cultural expression like languages, festival, freedom of religion and dietary preferences, which is often overlooked by those receiving these privileges. Problems often arises where to core values are pitted against each other. 

 

9 hours ago, puporing said:

Fear of change, like around differing values.

They might like the material/environment aspects but aren't open-minded about the more progressive values. Things like drug decriminalization, feminism, democracy, mental health treatment, sex-ed, sexual liberation, LGBTQ, anti-racism, child slavery (children seen as property), passing the family line, freedom of speech, freedom in general, individualism vs collectivism... tattoos and piercings?  

Good point.

Edited April 23, 2022 by ArcticGong
The point was unclear

[bejapuskas]

But also there is the problem of perceiving non-white cultures as inherently bad in the majority of ways, when white people have so much to learn from other cultures and they are not doing that. Honestly, white people are rich because of how they exploit other people. They are living off of their wealth. I am not surprised the people who got their wealth stolen want it back. White people are also the worst immigrants, every time they immigrate to a country, they enslave the population or kill it. Why do we think we are so superior? (Not to say that other races do not exploit, the Japanese and Chinese and other nations definitely did, but also, they are the lighter skinned ones in their region.)

And also some white people have issues with harmless things, like my dad told me that he does not like Arabs because they sit on blankets that they put next to a gas station and listen to music in Arabic. I do not see how that is a problem, if the blankets are not blocking the cars from going in? This is literally so common and most white families confirm their rasist biases in like a lot of conversations they have, for example during family celebrations etc. There are so many things that get suppressed from other cultures that are totally harmless.

Do you think that discouraging people from creating diversity in society by expressing harmless aspects of their culture is assimilation? I just want to clarify what you mean by assimilation. 

The aspects of culture that most people see as negative that are according to them coming from immigrants are often not cultural, but they are global phenomena, like patriarchy, transphobia, homophobia, aphobia, classism, casteism... They happen EVERYWHERE. If you as a White person hold a racist belief about somebody who you might think is lower consciousness than you or less spirally developed than you, first erradicate every belief that is sexist, racist, queerphobic or whatever else you have got, especially those that you personally benefit from, and then criticize. Just because somebody else is doing something we are also doing, be it to lower or higher extent, does not mean we have the right to judge those people.