The 5-MeO-DMT Mega-Thread

[Recursoinominado]

I am really interested in using this, but i have one concern after i saw some videos: its normal to lose control and scream? Because if it is the case, no way i am doing it in my apartment, must be some isolated place and with a sitter.

I saw leo's video, he took by himself, i imagined that you black out when it kicked in but those videos scared me a little lol

[zikzak]

I think it's kinda bananas to do alone the first time. I was gone the first few minutes (no physical awareness) and my body was moving strongly (symmetrical patterns) and I was screaming like a motherfucker. When I came to myself I was rather confused to start with and it helped tremendously that I had my best friend as a sitter. Also it was when I looked at him I noticed where I had ended up but that might not be important in other cases. All in all, from my personal experience, and from seeing others "under the influence" I feel it's kinda mandatory to have a sitter - at least until you know what you're dealing with. And even then it can be tricky. I have seen a guy that did it: the first 3 times he did it he was lying quietly down and not much was happening, he didn't break through. The the 4th time he broke through and suddenly he did all kinds of weird shit +the symmetrical yoga. And it was very good that he wasn't alone during that period. 

[Be Yourself]

@Recursoinominado What Leo's video did you see? Him doing 5-meo?

[ivandrade10]

@outlandish As I said earlier, I think the risks of irresponsible people using them irresponsibly are quite high, even though as you say you could use them more consciously. The more serious schools of inner development I know, always reserve the more advanced techniques to esoteric/reserved teaching, also because the risk of misuse is high. 

Anyway, I had a question, regarding the experience in itself:

If the substance (5meo or other) produces a temporary suspension of the "I" /ego, can you still perceive/describe the experience? 

"Continuing in the deepening of the suspension until achieving the register of "emptiness" signifies that nothing should appear as a representation, or as a register of internal sensations. There should not, and cannot be a register of this mental situation. And the return from the mental situation of suspension to habitual vigil is produced by impulses that reveal the position and the discomforts of the body.

We can not say anything about this “void”. The recovery of inspiring meanings, of the deep meanings that are beyond the mechanisms and the configurations of consciousness, are carried out by my “I” when it returns to its normal vigilic work. We are speaking of a type of perception, different from the ones we know, of “translations” of deep impulses, which arrive from my intrabody during deep sleep, or of impulses that arrive to my consciousness at the moment of “return” to the normal vigil. We cannot speak of that world because we do not have registers during the absence of the “I”; as Plato mentioned in his myths, we have only “reminiscences” of that world." 

Psychology 4, Silo
http://silo.net/system/documents/89/original/Apuntes_en.pdf

 

[zikzak]

13 hours ago, ivandrade10 said:

If the substance (5meo or other) produces a temporary suspension of the "I" /ego, can you still perceive/describe the experience? 

 

 

Yes. Experiencing from a non-dual perspective doesn't mean there's no perceiving just that the normal division of subject/object has fallen away. And yes you can also describe it when you are there. Your intellect doesn't evaporate. And this is in fact the "mystery" in a nutshell - the fact that it's possible to experience from a non-dual perspective but you are still fully capable to know this from that.

[outlandish]

20 hours ago, ivandrade10 said:

@outlandish

If the substance (5meo or other) produces a temporary suspension of the "I" /ego, can you still perceive/describe the experience? 

 

Yes, that was the big surprise for me. Despite the I/ego being suspended, awareness remains at the bottom of it all. In a way that's all that's left. It's very challenging to describe or discuss though because it's the WHOLE thing. Words are categories that we put things into, and you can't separate out the whole from itself and put it in it's own bucket so that we can look at it and talk about it. Yet, amazingly, it is actually possible to experience the monad/god/pure awareness directly.

But it's true what Plato said, when the ego returns and we come back to our default consciousness mode, the best we can do is reminisce and point in more or less the right direction. All talk about the subject is essentially lies. Some very advanced meditators/practitioners are probably able to glance back and forth between the two modes easily and rapidly, and thus better able to point in the right direction.

It's not a mechanical process, there's no guarantee that 5-MeO-DMT will deliver you this experience on demand, but it's the most direct line to the mystical experience, or god, or kensho, or oneness, or universe, or whatever you want to call it , that I've ever come across. At best you can find the stillness at the bottom of your mind, step out of the way, and let it take you there.

[ivandrade10]

Please allow me to play the devil's advocate here: 

Is it not possible that the experiences you are describing are just hallucinatory states, and you just experience the projections of your own inner content (however fantastic they might appear) ? 

Whenever Buddha was asked about Enlightenment or Nirvana, silence would be his reply (if I'm not mistaken). This is quite significant. Also the saying: those that know, do not speak, and those that speak, they do not know. 

Of course, beyond arguments and counter-arguments, the real test of fire will be if those experiences produce real and permanent transformations in your life. 

My intuition still says these shortcut paths to enlightenment will not end up well. (I really hope I'm mistaken)

People stay years stuck in meditative practises because they lack complete knowledge of what is required for permanent transformation. 

An interesting hint is given by Sadhguru in this video:
 

 

[Real Eyes]

52 minutes ago, ivandrade10 said:

Whenever Buddha was asked about Enlightenment or Nirvana, silence would be his reply (if I'm not mistaken). This is quite significant. Also the saying: those that know, do not speak, and those that speak, they do not know. 


 

 

Well if you apply that standard, then the Buddha himself "does not know" then, because he has described the process in great detail in the Pali Canon.  

You are not meant to interpret that statement literally.  It just means the experience cannot be communicated in words, which incidentally is the EXACT same thing everybody says after a 5-meo breakthrough.

 

 

 

[outlandish]

1 hour ago, ivandrade10 said:

Is it not possible that the experiences you are describing are just hallucinatory states, and you just experience the projections of your own inner content (however fantastic they might appear) ? 

Whenever Buddha was asked about Enlightenment or Nirvana, silence would be his reply (if I'm not mistaken). This is quite significant. Also the saying: those that know, do not speak, and those that speak, they do not know. 

Of course, beyond arguments and counter-arguments, the real test of fire will be if those experiences produce real and permanent transformations in your life. 

My intuition still says these shortcut paths to enlightenment will not end up well. (I really hope I'm mistaken)

 

5-Meo-DMT etc are not shortcuts to enlightenment. They are just shortcuts to having an enlightenment experience - it's important to be clear about this difference. I don't think anyone is claiming that having a breakthrough 5-MeO-DMT experience is a way to get enlightened (actually, "getting enlightened" seems like such an absurd concept...).

Like @Real Eyes said, your quote from the buddha doesn't contradict anything we're saying about 5-MeO-DMT, it's exactly complimentary to what we're saying. You literally can't talk about this fundamental mystical experience, I'm lying by trying to. But we can try anyways because it kind of points in the right way.

Yes it's possible that the experience is a hallucination. It's possible that the buddha had a hallucination. It's possible this whole goddam reality is a hallucination. What's real what's not? The experience is a real, actual experience, whatever you want to call it, as real as it gets. It's an actual experience of bare naked, unconditioned reality. Maybe when monks sit for decades and experience unconditioned reality, it's a different unconditioned reality from the one you experience when your ego/I dissolves on 5-MeO-DMT. Does it matter? Maybe. I'd like to get to the thing without exogenous chemicals and report back. But no matter what, you can't step in the same stream twice.

I want to be clear that I don't think of myself as an enlightened person. 5-MeO-DMT has not made me enlightened. I think I've had a taste of an enlightenment experience that I wasn't even sure was real or possible beforehand. Now I know that the thing all of the traditions point to is real, and it's propelled me to ask some deep questions in life.

[bobbyward]

the last couple of times i done 5-meo-dmt, the experience was exactly like waking up from a dream. waking up from the dream of being a separate self. 

like you when wake up from a dream, you know that was only a dream and this is reality. thats what it was like, i was dreaming i was a seperate self and i woke up to reality.

i cant really remember the experience though. i just have little snap shots of it in my mind. 

5meo has had lasting postive effects for me, the feeling and thoughts of being a separate self are alot less strong than they were before. 90per cent of the separate self is in the feelings in the body, 5meo is great for washing these feelings out.

[zikzak]

Look at the people that actually knows about these things. They do 3 years retreats with a silly amount of hours of meditation every day. There are no shortcuts as such IMO. Most of it is simply training. Letting the mind rest - as @outlandish says: "At best you can find the stillness at the bottom of your mind, step out of the way, and let it take you there." It's a long process for most people, it seems. Even if you should be so lucky to recognize your true nature (rigpa) it takes years and years and lots of training to letting the glimpses get longer and finally stabilize it. 

5-MeO-DMT just offers a glimpse - if you're lucky. And even then you have to "pay" by experiencing your own death/disintegration and very intense landscapes of the mind. Most people I know is scared shitless of 5meo. But maybe it can speed the process up, maybe.. If you use both tactics: intense meditative training and 5meo (and possibly other psychedelics). It's rare to see this though. Most people that actually have a strong meditative practice seems to be to righteous to consider psychedelics. And most psychedelic users are not drawn to more serious meditative training. That's how I see it anyway.

Nevertheless if 5meo doesn't contribute noteworthy in the long run for the meditative process it's still freaking amazing and I would wish for everybody that they will experience this freedom we are talking about here. And that's a wonderful thing about it - I remember coming out of my first experience I felt such a strong urge that everybody I cared about should be allowed to experience that freedom - but then again you don't go recommending people to experience their own death.

Edited September 11, 2017 by zikzak

[bobbyward]

I think 5meo is a short cut and speeds up the process alot. If i had to pick between meditation or 5meo, I'd pick 5meo hands down. But obviously both is best 

[JustinS]

@DrMobius 25mg is quite still alot. I would go down to 15-20mg. You might need less to breakthrough each time too. 

[bobbyward]

do whatever amount you need to get a breakthrough. the type of experience you have with it evolves over time, but ya it does get easier, and enjoyable.

anybody who is serious about using 5meo should read martin balls book : Entheogenic Liberation: Unraveling the Enigma of Nonduality with 5-MeO-DMT Energetic Therapy

Edited September 23, 2017 by bobbyward

[herghly]

I've had a handful experiences with mushrooms and recently done 2 ayahuasca ceremony's 

I have heard Martin ball in a video mention some shamans make ayahuasca with 5 meo dmt NOT nndmt . Has anyone had experience with this ? 

Ive yet to try 5 meo dmt but from what I've read it sounds like too much too fast  , being able to slow down the process to 4-6 hours seems more valuebale to me

[Leo Gura]

@herghly I doubt there is much 5-meo in ayahausca. 5-MeO is very difficult -- almost impossible to extract from plants without sophisticated lab equipment. It's a very heat-sensitive molecule. Most plants which contain DMT also have 5-MeO, but the 5-MeO gets lost in the extraction/cooking process.

I think what's being meant is Yopo seeds, which contain some 5-MeO and have been crushed into snuffs for thousands of years in South America. Still the unextracted Yopo seeds are a poor method of administration because you'd need to snort up to 1 gram of powder, which is a very nasty ordeal. Yopo seeds are also mostly Bufotinine.

There are no pure, concentrated forms of 5-MeO that we've found in nature so far. The toad is the closest thing we got, but even that is largely bufotinine, especially if it's not smoked.

There is also Vilca resin, which contains 5-MeO and is traditional chewed.

99% pure 5-MeO the most awesome thing ever. If there's one thing in life worth doing, this is it, by a long shot. Pure God.

[zikzak]

There seems to be a general consensus on caution towards 5-MeO-DMT with a MAOI. Also one report of death but that was with a ridiculously high amount of 5-MeO-DMT as far as I remember so all in all more of a mistake than something that just happened from a reasonable mix. 

But there are some positive reports out there also. And I personally think it's doable with a MAOI but one would have to be extremely cautious and also be open to risks. Even if it should not be harmful in any physical manner 5-MeO-DMT is still another beast to play with potentiating its effects and duration. Other  than traditional ayahuasca oral use one could also go MAOI + smoked/vaporized. I would personally be more interested in that myself. And sublingual 5-MeO-DMT + MAOI is also a possibility. I think it's kind of a shame that 5-MeO-DMT together with a MAOI has  been more or less written off since it seems to me that the bad reports mostly have been caused by recklessness. But again this is not something to play with without being extremely cautious so maybe it's good it's been written off. 

I'd say an easy way of prolonging the duration would be to do maybe  10mg intranasally and then vaporize maybe 10 mg that would extend the duration a bit. Or just to so as Martin Ball talks about: redose when the experience starts to fade. It seems that he usually did this with his clients doing 3 rounds. And really, 3 rounds of 5-MeO-DMT would be more than enough for almost all people I'd guess. 

[herghly]

Leo I haven't heard you talk about ayahuasca much . Have you tried it ? If not why ? @Leo Gura

Edited September 29, 2017 by herghly

[Forestluv]

Has someone done both Ayahuasca and 5meo that could compare the intensity levels?

[Leo Gura]

10 hours ago, herghly said:

Leo I haven't heard you talk about ayahuasca much . Have you tried it ? If not why ? @Leo Gura

I haven't done it.

It's a nasty brew to drink. Why go through all that when I can take 99% N,N-DMT and avoid all the vomiting?

Ayahuasca doesn't make sense to me. It makes sense for natives in the Amazon to take it because they don't have access to pure chemicals.

I'm sure the Ayahuasca ceremony is cool and all, but I prefer to trip solo. I don't need a bunch of chimps vomiting on me and losing their shit.

Ayahuasca is good for people who don't have access to anything else, or if you're interested in studying shamanism.