The 5-MeO-DMT Mega-Thread

[legendary]

I have a question that some of you might be able to answer better than the internet could:

There are sufficient trip reports on this thread to prove that 5-MeO-DMT is the most powerful psychedelic drug.

However, we also know that it isn't the most potent (purely looking at the weight of the dose), LSD is!

LSD (or an analog) is commonly taken only in microgram range, but does it have the potential to produce the same insights and non-dual awareness as 5-MeO-DMT at equal doses?

A few reasons why one might not want to do that with LSD are:

• Cost: It might be too expensive to take 20-30mg of LSD
• Long duration of the trip

I'm curious to know if things like these are the only reason why people shouldn't bother with extremely high doses of LSD (or even AL-LAD), or is it the case that these psychedelics fail to produce profound experiences like the ones with 5-MeO regardless of the dosage?

---

I believe this applies to people who haven't done a lot of spiritual purification, and hence they can't experience ego death at 150ug of AL-LAD, as Leo did.

I'm talking about an average stage green/yellow person who has only had few psychedelic experiences under their belt.

Cheers!

[Forestluv]

@legendary Don't get hung up on comparing dosages between different psychedelics. The important thing is the dosage necessary for a breakthrough experience on a given psychedelic. 

Breakthrough experiences on any psychedelic are extremely profound. I'd say in general, most people would consider 5-meo-dmt to consistently offer more profound experiences than LSD. It is the "crown jewel" of psychedelics. Yet, many many people (myself included) have had deeply profound experiences on LSD.

It's like asking why someone would drive a Ferrari over a Jaguar. They are both awesome.

Those that use LSD and 5-meo generally take a dose that will produce an ego death breakthrough experience. This might be 200ug of LSD for someone. If you go way higher, one could go into a black out or the experience could be completely incomprehensible. Afterwards, it can be nearly impossible to integrate those lessons into one's sober life. For example, I go into a blackout around 300ug of LSD. Why would I go that high or even higher? So I can super-duper blackout? 

[Leo Gura]

@legendary Son, you'd to be lucky to handle 300ug of LSD. It's gonna kick your ass.

[Enlightenment]

@legendary Seems like LSD is capable of producing the same insight. 1mg of legit LSD would be already INSANE and last very long, a lot of people who claim to take 600ug for example and go on a hike, have underdosed or degraded blotters.

[Leo Gura]

On 600ug of genuine LSD you will not be able to see clearly enough to walk.

[joeyi99]

What does the HCL version look like?

[FredFred]

8 hours ago, joeyi99 said:

What does the HCL version look like?

Look on the first page, Leo posted a picture of 30mg HCL

[legendary]

On 18/09/2018 at 1:34 AM, Serotoninluv said:

Don't get hung up on comparing dosages between different psychedelics.

I understand this, and I totally agree with you. Besides, as Leo mentioned in one of the episodes, the psychedelic trips will tend to be a part of a larger arc, instead of being standalone trips. Another analogy someone mentioned (Dennis McKenna, I believe) was that of exploring a new place while on psychedelics, such that once you make a significant advance or a breakthrough, you are able to return there and navigate more easily in the future. 

I was just curious about different psychedelics.

On 18/09/2018 at 1:34 AM, Serotoninluv said:

For example, I go into a blackout around 300ug of LSD.

I hadn't read about people blacking out on LSD. Thanks for sharing!

Here is a guide someone posted on Reddit about different LSD dosages:

https://www.reddit.com/r/LSD/comments/2hg6io/different_dosage_of_lsd_explained_from_20ug1500ug/

But of course, these experiences aren't objective at all, so any analysis will tend to be one-dimensional and rudimentary.

On 18/09/2018 at 2:21 AM, Leo Gura said:

Son, you'd to be lucky to handle 300ug of LSD. It's gonna kick your ass.

To be honest, I tripped on 300ug LSD before, it was profound. But 5-MeO (24mg) was the first psychedelic that kicked my ass! The ego was literally scared, trying to hold on, even if that meant yelling "Oh my God!" while resisting God.

[legendary]

14 hours ago, joeyi99 said:

What does the HCL version look like?

The HCl version I have is whitish pink. I have read some other users on this forum had the same.

[legendary]

Here are some papers published on 5-MeO that I came across.

The epidemiology of 5-methoxy-N, N-dimethyltryptamine (5-MeO-DMT) use: Benefits, consequences, patterns of use, subjective effects, and reasons for consumption

- The full paper isn't free to Download. Most of us already know this stuff, so not worth reading comprehensively

The natural hallucinogen 5-MeO-DMT, component of Ayahuasca, disrupts cortical function in rats: reversal by antipsychotic drugs

- Based on my understanding, this paper frames the 5-MeO experience as sort of disruptive and psychotic; and discusses how these effects can be reversed. Imagine all those rats having radical Non-Dual experiences;) and then being killed right after:(

Preferential action of 5-methoxytryptamine and 5-methoxydimethyltryptamine on presynaptic serotonin receptors: A comparative iontophoretic study with LSD and serotonin

- The full paper isn't free to Download. This was written way back, in 1977. It basically compares 5-MeO with other psychoactive substances and the receptors they target.

Short term changes in the proteome of human cerebral organoids induced by 5-MeO-DMT

- From the Discussion section: Typical psychological effects of psychedelics such as changes in perception and thought, renewed sensation of novelty, ineffability, and awe may derive directly from the strong modulation of synaptic and cellular plasticity promoted by 5-MeO-DMT, and putatively compounds of other classical psychedelics.

- Our work also suggests that a single, 24-hour-treatment with 5-MeO-DMT, i.e., a single dose, modulates specific signaling molecules identified as key players in LTP, a classic mechanism of learning and memory.

Cheers!

[outlandish]

23 hours ago, legendary said:

Short term changes in the proteome of human cerebral organoids induced by 5-MeO-DMT

- From the Discussion section: Typical psychological effects of psychedelics such as changes in perception and thought, renewed sensation of novelty, ineffability, and awe may derive directly from the strong modulation of synaptic and cellular plasticity promoted by 5-MeO-DMT, and putatively compounds of other classical psychedelics.

- Our work also suggests that a single, 24-hour-treatment with 5-MeO-DMT, i.e., a single dose, modulates specific signaling molecules identified as key players in LTP, a classic mechanism of learning and memory.

Cheers!

This one was really interesting ^ thanks. My take homes:

5-MeO-DMT probably has anti-addictive properties (I've noticed this anecdotally with other tryptamines as well):

"we observed major downregulation of mGluR5 after treatment with 5-MeO-DMT. mGluR5 has a role in the rewarding effects for several drugs of abuse. It was shown that mice lacking the mGluR5 gene do not self-administer cocaine and show no cocaine-induced hyperactivity [...] mGluR5 may be involved in addiction [...] These effects of 5-MeO-DMT can possibly explain the therapeutic effect of dimethyltryptamines from Ayahuasca on substance dependence. Moreover, Ayahuascaseems to inhibit addictive behaviors in an animal model of alcohol dependence"

5-MeO-DMT affects dendritic spine formation (this could play a role in learning), and brain cell death:

"5-MeO-DMT caused significant upregulation of EFNB2, EPHB, and various secondary messengers involved in dendritic spine formation. Dendritic spine formation can be induced by direct stimulation of serotonergic receptors"

"we observed a significant activation score for dendritic spine and cellular protrusion formation, microtubule and cytoskeletal organization, and also mild activation of T lymphocyte differentiation. On the other hand, biological functions such as neurodegeneration, cell death, and brain lesion were predicted to be inhibited."

In conclusion: 

"pathways, associated with cell death, in brain organoids were inhibited by 5-MeO-DMT."

"The proteomic profile, observed after exposure to 5-MeO-DMT, points to actions on synaptic plasticity and cell survival in human brain organoids" 

The authors seem to suggest that 5-MeO-DMT could be investigated for potential as a fast anti-depressant, similar to how Ketamine is being used clinically for depression right now. It makes sense that it could be useful in this regard given the effects on addiction pathways (which would be related to addictive behaviour as well as actual drug abuse addiction), synaptic plasticity and inhibiting cell death.

Very cool study, it's amazing that this kind of research is happening now.

[Leo Gura]

5-MeO is definitely effective for addiction treatment. This has been demonstrated over and over again by folks like Octavio Rettig.

Of course it is also an effective anti-depressant. And safer than ketamine.

[archi]

Well, it is nothing new, people are already treated with it but it is too weak for hard drug addicts, they need like 2 weeks of retreat on DMT, Iboga etc. to shape their new habits. 

Who is going to approve this treatment for addicted people ?! It is costly, it makes them mystics, so even more problems for material society.

It will take years and maybe change in society to approve all these things.

It will all change once big companies smell money ;).

We do not know or understand so many things that it  is mindblowing and we are already in 21 century :).

 

------------------------

Additional property of DMT (ayahuasca) (who know whether also 5-meo, I doubt it) is that it influences tumors and inflamation (i.e. reduction) but it is also at the start of the journey. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4687784/

Edited October 2, 2018 by archi

[legendary]

On 01/10/2018 at 6:20 PM, outlandish said:

5-MeO-DMT affects dendritic spine formation (this could play a role in learning), and brain cell death:

 

This could explain the phenomenon of the brain getting 'rewired' after having a number of mystical experiences with 5-MeO, as Leo described.

[Forestluv]

5-meo mini report

I just had direct experience as the magnificence of reality. ?

[FredFred]

Anyone know about 5-MeO in Oxalate salt form?

What's basically the main difference between this vs. freebase or HCL?

[SaltyMeatballs]

22 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

5-meo mini report

I just had direct experience as the magnificence of reality. ?

How much did u take? Which method of administration? 

[outlandish]

22 hours ago, FredFred said:

Anyone know about 5-MeO in Oxalate salt form?

What's basically the main difference between this vs. freebase or HCL?

I believe oxalate should behave more or less like the HCl rather than like the freebase, but you should confirm that with someone more up on their chemistry/pharma. I've never heard of it in oxalate, I presume it's become available again, in this form?

Yes, @Serotoninluv please expand on that micro report with dose and ROA at least, if possible!

[legendary]

@Serotoninluv wow!

Just out of curiosity, how much time do you allot for integration between trips?

I remember you had another breakthrough trip just last month?

[Forestluv]

6 hours ago, legendary said:

@Serotoninluv 

Just out of curiosity, how much time do you allot for integration between trips?

 

6 weeks

@SaltyMeatballs

22mg plugged. Sub-breaktrhough, yet still profound.