Cognitive functions

[thisintegrated]

7 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

The first two people that came to mind were Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris.

https://www.personality-database.com/profile/11583/sam-harris-western-philosophy-mbti-personality-type

https://www.personality-database.com/profile/11071/jordan-peterson-psychology-neuroscience-mbti-personality-type

 

Jordan Peterson has 1919 votes, and the top voted type has only 845 votes (44.03%).

Sam Harris has 281 votes, and the top voted type has 142 votes (50.53%).

In both of these cases, the winning type has 50% more votes than the runner up.  What's vague about that?

In such cases, it's usually because the two types are very similar, and a socionics model may be more accurate.  But this is quite rare.  Jordan is a particularly weird person, so people will have disagreements.  He's a feeler, but he's also a representative of modern intellectualism, or whatever you'd call it.

Another factor in the confusion is that some people type by functions, and some by the 8 letter system, which can give different results.  This is another reason I say MBTI needs more attention, scrutiny, and development.  These misconceptions can easily be cleared up, if there was only enough public will.  The laymen will just have a look at "16 personalities", and be done with it.

Edited April 17, 2022 by thisintegrated

[Carl-Richard]

Just now, thisintegrated said:

In both of these cases, the winning type has 50% more votes than the runner up.  What's vague about that?

In such cases, it's usually because the two types are very similar.

50% is not "consensus".

Beethoven has 72.87% on top voted type. That's more like consensus. ~75% is a good figure (Oldschool Runescape uses it as the passing limit for their polls for newly suggested game content ).

[thisintegrated]

8 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

50% is not "consensus".

Beethoven has 72.87% on top voted type. That's more like consensus. ~75% is a good figure (Oldschool Runescape uses it as the passing limit for their polls for newly suggested game content ).

No.. 50% on top of the 2nd place type.  You ignore the rest as it's noise.

 

The top two types are both predictions of Ti and Fe.  So clearly we have a definite consensus about Ti and Fe.  We also know that Ni and Se are twice as likely as Ne and Si.  This gives us a very accurate picture of his type.

 

Jordan is TiFe.  And he's a NiSe, unless you have good reason to doubt this.

Edited April 17, 2022 by thisintegrated

[Carl-Richard]

1 minute ago, thisintegrated said:

No.. 50% on top of the 2nd place type.  You ignore the rest.

I guess this kind of thinking works for democratic elections, but for "scientific truths", not so much.

Let's say we polled "Is Jordan Peterson an INFJ?"
Yes: 44.03%
No: 55.97%

You can only be one type, right? If it's 55.97% in favor for "not that type", then that's a problem.

[thisintegrated]

6 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

I guess this kind of thinking works for democratic elections, but for "scientific truths", not so much.

Let's say we polled "Is Jordan Peterson an INFJ?"
Yes: 44.03%
No: 55.97%

You can only be one type, right? If it's 55.97% in favor for "not that type", then that's a problem.

That's stupid, tbh.  Many people are voting on him based on having seen just a single talk of his, or hold biased views, or are new to MBTI, or see themselves in him and believe he's the same type.  Whatever the case, the most likely answer will come out on top.  Of course there will be noise, that's unavoidable with any data/statistics.

If instead of a few thousand votes you'd have a billion, and the winner was the same type, would you then accept the conclusion of the poll?  Would you really still be saying there's no consensus just because there are millions of wrong votes?

You have to decide on what sample size is good enough at some point.  That's how science works.  if 10 people voted, it means little, if 100 voted and there's a pattern, it's evidence.  If it's thousands, then it's very good evidence. etc.

[Carl-Richard]

25 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

The top two types are both predictions of Ti and Fe.  So clearly we have a definite consensus about Ti and Fe.  We also know that Ni and Se are twice as likely as Ne and Si. 

Maybe, but if we can pull and combine random statistics like that, isn't INFJ the least common type? INFJ 1.5% of population and ENTP 3.2% of population according to one source, meaning ENTP is twice as likely. What weighs more in this case? Your statistics or my statistics?  

Btw, I just saw a comment on JP's page: "BIELO: This page is a confusion" (4 upvotes) 

[thisintegrated]

18 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Maybe, but if we can pull and combine random statistics like that, isn't INFJ the least common type? INFJ 1.5% of population and ENTP 3.2% of population according to one source, meaning ENTP is twice as likely. What weighs more in this case? Your statistics or my statistics?  

omg.. and you claim to be a university student..??

It's 1.5% of the general population.  If you took a person at random, there's a 1.5% chance they're an INFJ.  3.2% that they're an ENTP.  But that all changes when it's no longer the "general " population.  Obviously.

 

The probability of a random person being INFJ is 1.5%.

The probability of a nerdy book author being INFJ is greater.

The probability of a nerdy book author who acts like Jordan, speaks like Jordan, thinks like Jordan, etc. being INFJ is even greater still!

 

We're not comparing within the general population. 

 

I really shouldn't have to be explaining this stuff to someone on this forum.

Edited April 17, 2022 by thisintegrated

[Carl-Richard]

1 minute ago, thisintegrated said:

It's 1.5% of the general population.  If you took a person at random, there's a 1.5% chance they're an INFJ.

I know. Same with your statistic about "Ni and Se are twice as likely as Ne and Si."

 

Just now, thisintegrated said:

The probability of a nerdy book author being INFJ is greater.

The probability of a nerdy book author who acts like Jordan, speaks like Jordan, thinks like Jordan, etc. being INFJ is even greater still!

Why not ENTP?

[thisintegrated]

4 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Why not ENTP?

Because that's what the statistics say!  And the statistics were formed from thousands of reasons from thousands of people.

 

SFJs are waaaaaay more common than INFJs.  Like at least 10x more common.  Yet that changes nothing.  SFJs aren't in the running for "what's Jordan's type".  SFJ types were ruled out before the polling even started.

Edited April 17, 2022 by thisintegrated

[Carl-Richard]

3 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Because that's what the statistics say!  And the statistics were formed from thousands of reasons from thousands of people.

Speaking of statistics, did you misspeak earlier or is this wrong?:
 

Quote

Overall:

62% of population has some order of Si & Ne

38% of population has some order of Se & Ni

https://www.reddit.com/r/mbti/comments/4spc12/population_by_cognitive_functions/

 

Seems to be the opposite of what you said.

[thisintegrated]

13 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Speaking of statistics, did you misspeak earlier or is this wrong?:
 

https://www.reddit.com/r/mbti/comments/4spc12/population_by_cognitive_functions/

How many types can have TiFe AND NiSe or NeSi?  

NiFeTiSe is twice as likely as NeTiFeSi, which twice as likely as TiNeSiFe.  And there's nothing else in the running for the title of "jordan's type".  So we throw away all the anomalies in the data, and only compare those that have a chance of being correct.

 

What we'd do is compare the arguments for INFJ, ENTP, and INTP, and see if any type doesn't make sense, function-wise, for Jordan.  Then we'd compare the last two and see which are Jordan's stronger preferences.  Does he prefer NiFe, or NeTi.  Which is more prevalent?

 

Or we could just guess which is most accurate for him, based on what we've seen.  There's a chance the guess it wrong, but if enough people do the same, a pattern will start to emerge, and we'll have winner, as we do now in the poll.

Edited April 17, 2022 by thisintegrated

[Carl-Richard]

Just now, thisintegrated said:

How many types can have TiFe AND NiSe or NeSi?  

If we're limiting ourselves to intuitives (which seems most relevant), it's ENTP, INTP, INFJ, ENFJ. (Sensors: ISFJ, ESFJ, ESTP, ISTP).

I gotta say it's interesting how ENTP and INTP both are TiFe + NeSi and make up 55.97% of the votes  

[thisintegrated]

2 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

If we're limiting ourselves to intuitives (which seems most relevant), it's ENTP, INTP, INFJ, ENFJ. (Sensors: ISFJ, ESFJ, ESTP, ISTP).

Yeah, quite a few fewer.  But we ignore ENFJ and sensors for reasons I stated above

The masses have done the work for us, and have left us with just 2 or 3 possibilities.  But they've also told us which of those possibilities is the correct one.

Edited April 17, 2022 by thisintegrated

[thisintegrated]

15 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

I gotta say it's interesting how ENTP and INTP both are TiFe + NeSi and make up 55.97% of the votes  

Proof it's likely to be one or the other, if not INFJ.  Finally you're getting it..

 

There's a reason no one's guessing SFJ.  People voting NTP shows how there's a clear pattern and some consensus is forming.  If MBTI didn't have any predictive power, you'd get complete randomness.  INTP would be guessed as often as ESFJ.

INTP and ENTP have the same functions.  So really it's just a question of NiSe vs NeSi.  But the fact that NiSe has overpowered the other two suggests Jordan is INFJ.  INFJ isn't an obvious choice, and requires some thought.  The low hanging fruit would be NTP.  Anyone unsure would say NTP.  But as the less obvious choice won, I'd say it's a genuine win for INFJ.

So really, if you just accepted the results of the poll, you would've known the answer without any analysis.

Edited April 17, 2022 by thisintegrated

[Carl-Richard]

5 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

Proof it's one or the other.  Finally you're getting it..

Proof that NeSi > NiSe  

 

[thisintegrated]

5 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Proof that NeSi > NiSe  

 

..if not INFJ.  It's proof of consensus.  Refresh the page.

Having 100% certainty that it's either NTP or INFJ is significant.  Don't downplay the significance of this.

 

Why do you think I thought @no_name was INTP?  INFJs can be trickly like this.  Everyone sees the NTP traits and votes for NTP.  Most of the time those NTP traits are, indeed, from an NTP, but sometimes it's the rarest type of all, the INFJ.  It takes an extra bit of data about someone to figure out the presence of those INFJ-specific traits.

Edited April 17, 2022 by thisintegrated

[Carl-Richard]

6 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

..if not INFJ.  It's proof of consensus.

Which one is it? 

 

16 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

But the fact that NiSe has overpowered the other two suggests Jordan is INFJ.

Destiny is 50/50 INTP and ENTP. Is that consensus in your eyes?

[thisintegrated]

5 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Destiny is 50/50 INTP and ENTP. Is that consensus in your eyes?

Who?  The fact that people are certain it's NTP is significant, don't you think.  It means people have agreed on every function.

This should be impossible, according to you.

 

5 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Which one is it? 

As I keep saying, INFJ. Did you not read what I said about NTP being the low hanging fruit? It's gonna be over-guessed as INFJs looks like NTPs.

When in doubt, everyone will guess NTP.  So the fact INFJ votes won means it wasn't a fluke.  No one's gonna guess INFJ on someone with strong NTP traits  unless they're certain.

Edited April 17, 2022 by thisintegrated

[Carl-Richard]

1 minute ago, thisintegrated said:

Who?  The fact that people are certain it's NTP is significant, don't you think.  It means people have agreed on every function.

This should be impossible, according to you.

OK, so for Jordan, 55.97% have agreed that he is NeSi and not NiSe ("people have agreed on every function"). That's significant, don't you think?  

[thisintegrated]

11 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

OK, so for Jordan, 55.97% have agreed that he is NeSi and not NiSe ("people have agreed on every function"). That's significant, don't you think?  

When in doubt, everyone will guess NTP.  So the fact INFJ votes won means it wasn't a fluke.  No one's gonna guess INFJ on someone with strong NTP traits  unless they're certain.

 

Since we can account for why 2nd and 3rd positions are NTPs, we can rule them out.

 

But why didn't anyone vote for SFJs if it's all random, as you suggest?  Everyone voted either NTP, or NTP with some nuance (which is the INFJ)

 

So even with this edge-case, that is Jordan, there is a clear consensus.  Yet you still refuse to accept it.

Edited April 17, 2022 by thisintegrated