It is impossible for something to make itself

[WokeBloke]

My claim: It is impossible for something to make itself.

All things that are made (such as this post) are brought into existence. In other words they once did not exist and then began existing after being made. If you think things can make themself you are essentially suggesting that something nonexistent can bring about its own existence. 

Thus the source of all things must be unmade.

[cetus]

8 minutes ago, WokeBloke said:

In other words they once did not exist and then began existing after being made.

There is a level of consciousness where everything and anything already exists in a state of pure potential. Whether or not it becomes manifest is of little concern.

[Leo Gura]

It is impossible for something to make something else which is not itself.

[A Fellow Lighter]

Where there is nothing.. will is law.

Where there is will there is way.

[Barna]

2 hours ago, WokeBloke said:

My claim: It is impossible for something to make itself.

All things that are made (such as this post) are brought into existence. In other words they once did not exist and then began existing after being made. If you think things can make themself you are essentially suggesting that something nonexistent can bring about its own existence. 

Thus the source of all things must be unmade.

This is the Christian worldview. This comes from the idea that God created the universe.

However, if you had grown up in a Buddhist culture, you would see nature as self-creating and self-evolving. 

It's all just social conditioning. Try to change your perspective with more agility until you become free of any perspective.

[StudentX]

3 hours ago, WokeBloke said:

Thus the source of all things must be unmade.

= all things are unmade

[Kksd74628]

@WokeBloke

Think it like that - right NOW everything you are seeing is the creator, but the creator's "body" doesn't stay same looking all the time and actually it is constantly changing. So basicly you don't see anything which is "made", because there is nothing which is "made", because the moment you have right NOW is the creator itself. So the "made" and "unmade" is the same thing.

[WokeBloke]

On 4/11/2022 at 1:18 AM, StudentX said:

= all things are unmade

this can be disputed with the direct of experience of making something that previously didn't exist such as your response. In reality everything is made except for the unmade.

[WokeBloke]

7 minutes ago, Kksd74628 said:

@WokeBloke

Think it like that - right NOW everything you are seeing is the creator, but the creator's "body" doesn't stay same looking all the time and actually it is constantly changing. So basicly you don't see anything which is "made", because there is nothing which is "made", because the moment you have right NOW is the creator itself. So the "made" and "unmade" is the same thing.

You made your post isn't it? It didn't exist until you made it.

[Kksd74628]

@WokeBloke

In your dream where you are sherlock holmes and you make cookies in oven, actually sherlock holmes didn't make anything, because the whole situation was movie. So it is not movie's characters which are making anything up, but the director itself. So actually "I" didn't make my post, but it was God, if you like to call this present moment as that. As long as you think that God/creator is something else than this moment right NOW you are imagining some fairytale. You already agree that God is unmade so the only thing you need to realize is that this present moment is the God.

[WokeBloke]

5 minutes ago, Kksd74628 said:

@WokeBloke

In your dream where you are sherlock holmes and you make cookies in oven, actually sherlock holmes didn't make anything, because the whole situation was movie. So it is not movie's characters which are making anything up, but the director itself. So actually "I" didn't make my post, but it was God, if you like to call this present moment as that. As long as you think that God/creator is something else than this moment right NOW you are imagining some fairytale. You already agree that God is unmade so the only thing you need to realize is that this present moment is the God.

I is a reference by the creator/user to itself. 

The present moment is your creation. It's not you. You are imperceptible.  

[Kksd74628]

@WokeBloke

16 minutes ago, WokeBloke said:

You made your post isn't it? It didn't exist until you made it.

Also it seems that you didn't read my post with an intention to understand, because you just commented something which didn't even relate to what I said. I was even surprised myself about what I wrote, because it was very accurately on point. I wouldn't be surprised if someone would get some type of awakening only from that answer alone. 

1 minute ago, WokeBloke said:

You are imperceptible.  

Why do you think like that? What is the argument behind that this moment couldn't be the creator itself changing its shape constantly?

[Osaid]

On 4/10/2022 at 10:05 PM, WokeBloke said:

In other words they once did not exist and then began existing after being made.

That's what you're imagining. There is a thing that exists, and then you're imagining that there was a point where it began existing.

On 4/10/2022 at 10:05 PM, WokeBloke said:

If you think things can make themself you are essentially suggesting that something nonexistent can bring about its own existence. 

There is no process of "making" existence, unless you imagine it and then project it onto your current experience. The process of making existence would also be something that exists. Existence can't escape itself.

Something nonexistent bringing on its own existence is basically correct, but kind of redundantly put. There is no "bringing on", that part is imagined. It just exists there, and then it is subject to whatever imagination you want to throw at it.

I think your problem is you're trying to put something infinite into a finite criteria, which leads to paradox. You're unable to see that reality might function paradoxically, and so you're stuck saying things like "in order for this to exist something MUST have created it before." There is no beginning or end to reality, it's infinite, and so there is no real need for a maker or creator or creation process.

[WokeBloke]

Just now, Kksd74628 said:

@WokeBloke

Also it seems that you didn't read my post with an intention to understand, because you just commented something which didn't even relate to what I said. I was even surprised myself about what I wrote, because it was very accurately on point. I wouldn't be surprised if someone would get some type of awakening only from that answer alone. 

Why do you think like that? What is the argument behind that this moment couldn't be the creator itself changing its shape constantly?

 

You don't answer my question. Your post was made. How can you dispute that? If it is made then it isn't unmade by definition.

 

My logic is simply that what you see doesn't have eyes so it can't be the seer. Your creation can't see itself. 

[WokeBloke]

8 minutes ago, Osaid said:

That's what you're imagining. There is a thing that exists, and then you're imagining that there was a point where it began existing.

There is no process of "making" existence, unless you imagine it and then project it onto your current experience. The process of making existence would also be something that exists. Existence can't escape itself.

Something nonexistent bringing on its own existence is basically correct, but kind of redundantly put. There is no "bringing on", that part is imagined. It just exists there, and then it is subject to whatever imagination you want to throw at it.

I think your problem is you're trying to put something infinite into a finite criteria, which leads to paradox. You're unable to see that reality might function paradoxically, and so you're stuck saying things like "in order for this to exist something MUST have created it before." There is no beginning or end to reality, it's infinite, and so there is no real need for a maker or creator or creation process.

I'm not imagining that though. You could take a video of typing your post and rewatch the video and literally see that there was a point when your post didn't exist and then you brought it into existence.

There is the unmade existence and the made existence. Both exist simultaneously. The unmade (beginingless and endless) makes the impermanent/transient things.

 

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by WokeBloke

[Kksd74628]

@WokeBloke  

There is no God's creation and that is the mistake you are making. There is only God and it is aware of itself forever seeing itself change to different shapes. Ta - da, that's the whole spirituality and reality in 2 sentences. My post was not made, because it is God which didn't need to be created. I am NOW using your own terms that I wouldn't maybe use, but it helps our communication so I will keep it with you only so you finally would understand what I have tried to tell you for a long time on this forum and on discord conversations. 

Okay concentrate NOW so you may get what we all are here trying to tell you including Leo Gura itself. What is happening for you right NOW is one "snapshot" of reality and it is also called as God. The thing is that who said that God couldn't change its look continually. Who would stop God doing such thing? There is no one or something else than God, because God is everything. By definition, if God is everything then it must be the moment which is happening right NOW so "you" are looking towards God all the time without realizing it.

[Osaid]

 

8 minutes ago, WokeBloke said:

You could take a video of writing your post and rewatch the video and literally see that there was a point when your post didn't exist and then you brought it into existence.

Ask yourself, how are you perceiving "past" and "future" from the present moment? How is that even possible? Where does "past" and "future" exist, if they are supposed to be distinct from the present moment? If it's experienced in the present, and the present moment is your only way of experiencing, then it's not in the past or future, but the present, right? Maybe "past" and "future" have always been in the present moment, and you were just imagining they weren't?

[WokeBloke]

 

8 minutes ago, Kksd74628 said:

@WokeBloke  

There is no God's creation and that is the mistake you are making. There is only God and it is aware of itself forever seeing itself change to different shapes. Ta - da, that's the whole spirituality and reality in 2 sentences. My post was not made, because it is God which didn't need to be created. I am NOW using your own terms that I wouldn't maybe use, but it helps our communication so I will keep it with you only so you finally would understand what I have tried to tell you for a long time on this forum and on discord conversations. 

Okay concentrate NOW so you may get what we all are here trying to tell you including Leo Gura itself. What is happening for you right NOW is one "snapshot" of reality and it is also called as God. The thing is that who said that God couldn't change its look continually. Who would stop God doing such thing? There is no one or something else than God, because God is everything. By definition, if God is everything then it must be the moment which is happening right NOW so "you" are looking towards God all the time without realizing it.

 

You claim there is a creator but no creation. How do you know there is a creator if there is no creation?

You are identifying with your creation. Yet as soon as your creation (this present moment which only lasts an instant) is destroyed you remain.

[Kksd74628]

@Osaid

You are exactly correct, because it is an assumption that when you watch video that the thing which you see in video actually happened at all somewhere else, but in present moment HERE and NOW. One funny thing to realize is that whole Universe started right NOW, because you may first say that no it all came from yesterday, but NO! Present moment actually happens "before" thought of yesterday, because thought of yesterday or past can't happen without present moment, but present moment can happen without thought of yesterday which is happening within present moment, if it is at all.

[WokeBloke]

1 minute ago, Kksd74628 said:

@Osaid

You are exactly correct, because it is an assumption that when you watch video that the thing which you see in video actually happened at all somewhere else, but in present moment HERE and NOW. One funny thing to realize is that whole Universe started right NOW, because you may first say that no it all came from yesterday, but NO! Present moment actually happens "before" thought of yesterday, because thought of yesterday or past can't happen without present moment, but present moment can happen without thought of yesterday which is happening within present moment, if it is at all.

moments aren't eternal.

Eternity contains infinite moments.

Edited April 12, 2022 by WokeBloke