Joe Rogan SUPPORTS ‘Don’t say gay’ bill

[bejapuskas]

@Preety_India If they never rape a child, if they stay away from that, I dont see how they are bad. Not all people who experience attraction to kids act on it, just like not all people who have attraction to people their age rape, although some do. Many people who offend kids are not attracted to them and they do it out of boredom or porn addiction or other things. It is not that simple.

I am not advocating for child marriage or anything like that, I believe kids are asexual. They can be curious about bodies, but I believe they do not desire sexual relarionships, especially not with adults.

But if somebody just like leaves it at being attracted to them, but does not do anything wrong per se, seeks treatment etc. Then I think those people are better than corrupt politicians with loads of power to harm and destroy.

 

 

[Preety_India]

1 minute ago, bejapuskas said:

If they never rape a child, if they stay away from that, I dont see how they are bad.

Wtf? They are still bad.

 

[zurew]

40 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Wtf? They are still bad.

I bet sometimes everyone have some weird thoughts that pop up in their head, especially when they are emotional. 

Like "i would kill that criminal" or "that man should be burned alive" and stuff like that

Should we label everyone as 'bad' if they have weird or bad thoughts?

One of the main things that meditation teaches you, that you don't really control your thoughts, you are just following them. Being good can mean not to be reactive and not to act on thoughts that are considered bad. 

The other question is, can you decide what you are attracted to? Imagine if you would be attracted to dead bodies. We can label that bad, but can these people change their attraction? I don't think so. 

We don't really know where attraction exactly comes from, its still a debatable topic in science.

[Preety_India]

Just now, zurew said:

I bet sometimes everyone have some weird thoughts that pop up in their head, especially when they are emotional. 

Like "i would kill that criminal" or "that man should be burned alive" and stuff like that

Should we label everyone as 'bad' if they have weird or bad thoughts?

One of the main things that meditation teaches you, that you don't really control your thoughts, you are just following them. Being good can mean not to be reactive and not to act on thoughts that are considered bad. 

The other question is, can you decide what you are attracted to? Imagine if you would be attracted to dead bodies. We can label that bad, but can these people change their attraction? I don't think so. 

We don't really know where attraction exactly comes from, its still a debatable topic in science.

This sounds way too simplistic. Having pedophile thoughts kinda really bad, can't be justified. Killing a criminal and doing wrong stuff to kids, I don't know where your moral scale lies that you put both on the same page. But whatever.

 

[Danioover9000]

@zurew

Just now, zurew said:

I bet sometimes everyone have some weird thoughts that pop up in their head, especially when they are emotional. 

Like "i would kill that criminal" or "that man should be burned alive" and stuff like that

Should we label everyone as 'bad' if they have weird or bad thoughts?

One of the main things that meditation teaches you, that you don't really control your thoughts, you are just following them. Being good can mean not to be reactive and not to act on thoughts that are considered bad. 

The other question is, can you decide what you are attracted to? Imagine if you would be attracted to dead bodies. We can label that bad, but can these people change their attraction? I don't think so. 

We don't really know where attraction exactly comes from, its still a debatable topic in science.

   Attraction mainly comes from genetics, biology, brain wiring and body composition, but there are other ways as well.

[zurew]

1 minute ago, Preety_India said:

This sounds way too simplistic. Having pedophile thoughts kinda really bad, can't be justified. Killing a criminal and doing wrong stuff to kids, I don't know where your moral scale lies that you put both on the same page. But whatever.

Notice that we were all talking about thoughts and not actions. You labeled the pedohile as 'bad' based on having 'bad' thoughts. Of course if we are talking about actions its not on the same level. But we were talking about thoughts.

[Danioover9000]

   So back to topic: should Florida rightly ban homosexual ideas and theories in being taught in schools, as early as elementary school?

[zurew]

3 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

Attraction mainly comes from genetics, biology, brain wiring and body composition, but there are other ways as well.

Yeah, but could you tell me exactly based on what characteristics a person will be homosexual or bisexual or heterosexual? I don't think we know how to distinguish between those based on what you wrote.

[Preety_India]

6 minutes ago, zurew said:

Notice that we were all talking about thoughts and not actions. You labeled the pedohile as 'bad' based on having 'bad' thoughts. Of course if we are talking about actions its not on the same level. But we were talking about thoughts.

Be careful. Thoughts, intentions and actions are correlated.

Today's intentions become tomorrow's actions.

It's no joke or light matter to have pedophile thoughts. If my brother had such thoughts, I would sever all ties with him and never talk to him again in life.

You can say I'm moralising or being moralistic. But there is a limit. Some things just cross the line of human decency and Shame.

A person can have weird fetishes and fantasies. But pedophilia is the worst of the worst. The person has to be a real scumbag to have such thoughts. It's almost criminal to have such thoughts..

But that's my opinion 

 

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Preety_India

[zurew]

2 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

A person can have weird fetishes and fantasies. But pedophilia is the worst of the worst. The person has to be a real scumbag to have such thoughts. It's almost criminal to have such thoughts..

But that's my opinion 

Thats okay. But i still don't think we can control on our thoughts especially if they are coming from sexual desire. What i would be interested in how could we prevent these people acting on those thoughts and also how can we make them so that they will be willingly to for therapy sessions.

But thats not relevant to this topic, so i will stop.

[Danioover9000]

@Knowledge Hoarder

1 minute ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

You either are fully/partly gay, or you're not. No societal programming can ever change that, in my opinion - at least not significantly.

  Ok, should social programming be and allowed to pass a bill restricting certain sexuality ideas to be taught in schools as early as primary schools?

[zurew]

7 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

So back to topic: should Florida rightly ban homosexual ideas and theories in being taught in schools, as early as elementary school?

What is the conservatives exact fear here? That the kids will more likely turn out to be gay ?

I think their biggest assumption is that people can change their sexuality based on societal norms. I don't buy that though.

There must have been the first gay person on Earth who didn't see any other gay man or woman around him/her. So if it only societal that shouldn't be possible.

The only question remains is that can societal norms have a significant role in turning people gay. I think thats their only reasonable argument here.

[Danioover9000]

@zurew

9 minutes ago, zurew said:

Yeah, but could you tell me exactly based on what characteristics a person will be homosexual or bisexual or heterosexual? I don't think we know how to distinguish between those based on what you wrote.

   Do you think we should teach attraction to schools as early as primary schools?

[zurew]

1 hour ago, Danioover9000 said:

Do you think we should teach attraction to schools as early as primary schools?

Yes i do. When you are in primary school 5th 6th grade and above you start to feel some kind of attraction towards others except if you are Asexual.

Teaching them about sexuality and attraction is very important, because they will be  less likely to be depressed, when they are for example gay. Because they can understand then , that it is normal, nothing wrong with them, there are other people as well who are in the same shoes as them.

They can be educated on how to have safe sex and how to attract their partner as well. Teaching about the sexual dynamics as well how it works what to expect and so on. 

I don't see the harm in educating in primary school. But i can see the downside if we don't educate. 

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by zurew

[gettoefl]

2 hours ago, zurew said:

What is the conservatives exact fear here? That the kids will more likely turn out to be gay ?

I think their biggest assumption is that people can change their sexuality based on societal norms. I don't buy that though.

There must have been the first gay person on Earth who didn't see any other gay man or woman around him/her. So if it only societal that shouldn't be possible.

The only question remains is that can societal norms have a significant role in turning people gay. I think thats their only reasonable argument here.

conservatives seek to quash any mention of the word gay

mentioning the word proliferates the lifestyle and in their mind it is a destructive lifestyle

the word should have no part of the school curriculum in their opinion

stop indoctrinating my kids with the gay agenda is their message

outlaw the word and this community will vanish

lol

[zurew]

46 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

conservatives seek to quash any mention of the word gay

mentioning the word proliferates the lifestyle and in their mind it is a destructive lifestyle

the word should have no part of the school curriculum in their opinion

stop indoctrinating my kids with the gay agenda is their message

outlaw the word and this community will vanish

lol

Most conservatives are probably gay (those who are demonizing gayness so much), they just don't know it yet, or they are repressing it (because of this huge demonizing). Its a huge part of their shadow side.

Maybe because for them its more important to relate to the conservative ideology compared to being authentic about their sexuality. So ideology may outweigh sexuality in some cases.

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by zurew

[bejapuskas]

@Preety_India  I dont agree with you but I understand your fear. It can surely be scary to think about it, I myself have been prayed on by a guy who stalked me multiple days to school and invited me to his car once too. He is a bad guy, just like so many others. But if he never did what he did and did not sit next to me in school bus etc., I would be fine with his existence as such.

I still dont get why being gay is a problem though? Why is it reasonable argument to try and prevent people from being that, if it is aligned with their most truthful expression of themselves? Arent we supposed to value truth here? 

Sure, if your true expression is fucking corpses or animals and catching some nasty diseases that you then spread onto others, or fucking kids, the best thing is to remain in the ethical realm, seek support, but not try to explore true sexual desire and realize it. 

But then with gay, trans, aromantic, asexual, what the fuck is peoples problem, seriously? It can be good to be that way, the only thing that makes it bad is the legal oppression, bullying, not being accepted etc. It is not a mental illness, it is fine. Thinking that like oh thank God my kids are allosexual, they will not suffer from beingn forced into having sex by others etc., it is well meaning, but it still kisses the oppressors feet and it does not advocate for full expression and truth. I dont see a good argument for not teaching it, I think theres such a thing as straight agenda, cis agenda, allo agenda, it is all bad, whatever agenda you have, unless it embraces all.

[gettoefl]

16 minutes ago, zurew said:

Most conservatives are probably gay (who is demonizing gayness so much), they just don't know it yet, or they are repressing it (because of this huge demonizing). Its a huge part of their shadow side.

Maybe because for them its more important to relate to the conservative ideology compared to being authentic about their sexuality. So ideology may outweigh sexuality in some cases.

 

yes me fears they doth protest too much

they seem ignorant to the fact that repression can't lead to extinction, overt repression leads to covert expression

[zurew]

10 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

But then with gay, trans, aromantic, asexual, what the fuck is peoples problem, seriously?

They just assume, that being gay or trans is not true, but its a cultural delusion and its coming from society and not from biology.

I think if we can do more research about sexual attraction, and we find characteristics such that we can show exactly, biologically speaking where gayness or trans-ness is coming from, then most conservative people who is earnest will drop their demonizing beliefs about gay and trans people.But such research need to be done, until then there will be a lot of transphobe and homophobe people and they will stay that way.

I saw some people change their beliefs about trans people thanks to the male and female brain research. And thanks to the education about the distinction between sex and gender.

The not earnest conservatives are irrelevant, cause their mind can't be changed they will be replaced by younger more progressive generations. Or i don't really know what could be done using the spiral dynamics model, to further their development.

[Preety_India]

1 hour ago, bejapuskas said:

But then with gay, trans, aromantic, asexual, what the fuck is peoples problem, seriously? It can be good to be that way, the only thing that makes it bad is the legal oppression, bullying, not being accepted etc. It is not a mental illness, it is fine. Thinking that like oh thank God my kids are allosexual, they will not suffer from beingn forced into having sex by others etc., it is well meaning, but it still kisses the oppressors feet and it does not advocate for full expression and truth. I dont see a good argument for not teaching it, I think theres such a thing as straight agenda, cis agenda, allo agenda, it is all bad, whatever agenda you have, unless it embraces all.

I don't look at it from an agenda's perspective. I more than welcome different orientations, identities and sexual preferences. My biggest problem is what if kids are confused about their identity early on and how it will pan out psychologically when they grow up. As in when they're 16 years old, would they be unhappy that they were exposed to such things early on. My argument is not coming from an anti-gay perspective (nothing against gays at all) but to protect the psychological interests of children (I might be wrong here so it's just a dart in the dark), I am throwing an argument in favor of the opposite to see what happens, how the future would look like. I don't know how ethical it is to expose children to all kinds of information when they haven't reached the emotional maturity to make the decisions themselves. A more favorable situation to me would be letting them understand or be exposed to different gender based identities when they have crossed puberty and are kinda legally (sexually speaking), like at least 17/18 years old so they themselves get to decide what their exact sexual preference is.