Isn't Actual Nothing the same as when we are in deep sleep state?

[Atb210201]

This question has been in my mind in days and I don't know if actual nothing and no self is actually the same as when we are in deep sleep state and there is nothing not even an experiencer who is present to know of itself and conscious of its presence and being or it's different when we die and being and presence and consciousness are and there is a self which is just conscious of everything but it still is and is different from the deep sleep state which is actual nothing it's not even a thing it doesn't even have a self or an experiencer 

 

Is there a difference between the two?

 

Are there stages in death and nothing is the final stage of it and is like deep sleep or not? 

 

 

[Consilience]

The self remains in dreamless sleep. So yes it is the same. This pure nothingness is also called awareness in some traditions and can become aware of itself while in the waking state. 

[Arthogaan]

@Consilience I know you mastered meditation a lot. I know some monks are able to keep awareness also during deep sleep phase of sleep. Did you try it? Are you able to do that? If yes, how would you describe it? For example the gap between the dreams did it feel subjectively as eternity?

[Consilience]

@Arthogaan Thank you but I haven’t mastered meditation, still very much a beginner.

The deepest access to this formless consciousness, the self, has occurred during formal meditation practice. Infinity, or God are also appropriate words. Yet even those words and this writing do an enormous disservice to what is being pointed to. It’s not an experience, state, or perception and cannot be captured. Because it is completely independent of all qualia/experience, it persists even during dreamless sleep. The strange paradox is that this pure nothingness can start to reveal itself at deeper and deeper levels as we practice, despite being completely independent of all qualities. 
 

I don’t have access to this pure nothingness during deep sleep. But when there’s a lot of concentration, sensory clarity, and equanimity, yeah. Doing self inquiry or dzogchen like practices are when it’s most available, but Ive been experimenting with trying to practice vipassana while absorbed in the nothing. 

It tends to suck the mind in and totally obliterate conceptual sense making. Attention becomes too present, too now, for any coherent thoughts to exist, as all thoughts and concepts rest on the creation of time. Ive had what I consider to be “mini” cessation events when attempting to bring attention to this. Im not sure whether it’s 8th jhana or cessation but all perception starts to very briefly blink out of existence and all that “remains” is that pure, changeless consciousness that persists between waking, dreaming, and dreamless sleep. 

Don’t misunderstand though, I still have tons and tons and tons of bullshit to work through. Neurotic thinking and self clinging, suffering, and stress are what make up the majority of my day. Being able to access such deep states and touching truth has shown just how much work there is left to do to really live in alignment with what is true. It’s been beyond humbling. 

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Consilience

[nistake]

@Consilience Sorry, I don't mean to derail the topic, but what's your stance on shadow work?

[Consilience]

@nistake Ive never formally done it, but Ive had many moments on retreats, psychedelics, or just day to day practice where I’ve encountered unconscious content of mind deeply shaping my “surface” level experience. My guess would be this would be called the shadow. Ive also observed how much of my judgments and problems with others are really problems with myself. 
 

So having never formally practiced shadow work but having observed and worked through large amounts of shadow material, yeah I see the power in directly focusing on it. 
 

For me, meditation naturally aluminates these hidden dynamics of mind. But I also practice meditation not only in the context of enlightenment, but also as a practice to purify the mind and harmonize the mind with ethics, virtue, integrity, metta, goodness, etc. The shadow cannot maintain itself in the light of these wholesome qualities. However as history has shown, even advanced meditators fail to uproot everything. Self deception, the shadow, the devil, should never, ever, be underestimated. 
 

In a sense, I view real meditation as an indispensable pillar for bringing light to the shadows in the mind. But only doing mindfulness will most likely leave blind spots. 

[VeganAwake]

It will be nothing just as before the body was born.

A temporary appearance/experience and then collapses back into nothing.

Nobody wants to hear that....well maybe some haha

And in that sense, nothing actually matters.

❤ 

[Breakingthewall]

On 5/4/2022 at 6:02 PM, Atb210201 said:

nothing and no self is actually the same

imagine that there is no difference between nothing. anything is the same as anything else. that is nothing. "something" is the apparent differentiation, the form. without form there is nothing. only you, and you have no limits, and you are nothing. in deep sleep it is like that. eternity doesn't last long. it doesn't last. an instant is eternity. until you imagine the differences and time begins