Depersonalization/Derealization

[stefm5]

Youtube has become full of people talking neo-advaitan stuff. There is nobody, there is no person, nothing to do blah blah. They all use a fixated language and the majority of them tying to sell no-thing in order to survive. 

While awakening is not a personal story, i don't see why denying what's apparently happening (life). This makes me wonder if they have depersonalization/derealization disorder mistaking it for awakening. On the other hand in which level depersonalization is awakening?

There is a girl 'Sonia' who in many of her videos cries. 'everything is dying' 'losing my parents' 'losing my dog' 'no goals' 'no career'. When in reality nothing has changed apart for her view on reality.

 

[Grateful Dead]

2 hours ago, stefm5 said:

Youtube has become full of people talking neo-advaitan stuff.

Yeah, I noticed that too. Every day a different non-duality channel is recommended to me, although I've never watched any of them...

There really is a fine line between depersonalization and awakening, or no line at all. To me, awakening is like a healthy form of depersonalization/derealization.

Although it's looking very chaotic at the moment, I think the upsurge from these videos is a good sign, it means people are waking up. 

[Carl-Richard]

3 hours ago, stefm5 said:

This makes me wonder if they have depersonalization/derealization disorder mistaking it for awakening.

I've experienced both and they're not the same.

[StudentX]

Awakening is not DP/DR and vice versa. DP is not the realization of "no-self", because in DP, there most definitely is a self left, and a rather scared one at that.

We make a distinction between what "I do" and "what hapens to me", and ordinary ego-consciousness identifies itself with "I do".

Depersonalization is simply the other side of that coin, where the ego identifies with "happens to me". It's simply a matter of different perspective, albeit a very sticky and nasty one.

Awakening feels like there's no difference between what you do and what happens, but to such a degree, that there isn't any "I do" and "happens to me" left, it's all just one harmonious process.

Solipsism often goes hand in hand with DP/DR, because the ego is still there and confuses it with enlightenment. 

[Consilience]

4 hours ago, stefm5 said:

Youtube has become full of people talking neo-advaitan stuff.

It's kind of hilarious, utterly tragic, and also interesting observing this new niche and ego survival mechanism emerge. Even though real spirituality takes an enormous amount of effort, persistence and dedication, most will never realize the extent of this, even those who have had some kind of glimpse. 

I think many who get swept away in the sales pitch of "THIS IS IT, THERE'S NOTHING TO DO" will eventually come to their senses. If years have passed and large amounts of suffering are still present, I'd like to think the heart/mind naturally moves towards higher teachings, teachers, and ultimately, a higher path. This may be an empty hope though. 

[Kksd74628]

@Consilience

Then I had pretty easy path, because there was not that much of resisting and try harding. I watched and still watch spiritual videos for fun, but actually pretty rarely I find anything useful, because I come from the stand point - this moment is all there is and point of life is to be happy, which means to smile to whatever happens. Why so much effort and grinding to see what already was there? I see that even trying to enjoy present moment has become new "game" I like to play, because actually I don't anymore care about how mindful I am and what is the level of happiness that I have.

I guess it was because I binge watched almost all Leo's, Frank Yang's and other great guys videos in half year or so and that lead me to where I am right NOW. Of course I may realize some little things occasionally, but nothing too radical. What helped was that I never had too much going on with my life so I was "saved" from unnecessary drama and "low consciousness" stuff. I always knew that somehow what I really want was to be as happy as possible even long before I heard anything about spirituality.

At some point I got insight that what if I could drag my meditation state to life outside of it and when I started equalize the difference I noticed that meditation actually is not trying to focus, but to see that the perceptions happen by themselfes without any mind work and that was quite radical shift. Another big breaktrough point was when I was running and I saw that aswell as the surroundings even "I" and "my body" is thing which is happening by itself automatically without control. 

-joNi-

 

[Consilience]

@Kksd74628

It sounds like you've mad pretty substantial breakthroughs. That's amazing to hear.

It's difficult for me to understand where you're at on your path, but I can say that for the overwhelming majority of people who think they've really broken through to reality, have not. Truly breaking through means liberation from suffering. The truth is so good, so transcendent, so radical, that things such as a slow, painful death, or torture, are seen through. The mind and consciousness have become so integrated and awakened that even if these tragedies were to befall on the being in question, they wouldn't suffer at all. That's true enlightenment, that's the implications of how things really are. 

If you disagree with that claim, you and I are talking about two totally distinct kinds of awakening. How many of these neo advaita types could withstand cancer ravaging the body without fear or suffering, for example? Not many. 

The power in holding ourselves to such extreme conditions is that it forces a humility and an understanding of just how deep this path really goes. An easy way to stress test one's level of awakening is to go on meditation retreats and seriously face what you really are without the distractions, titillations, and addictions of life. 

Just as beautifully as seeing the perfection of this present moment is watching the wonder, beauty, and subtle grandiosity of the unfolding spiritual path. Seeing through the illusion of a separate self is truly just the beginning. Keep going would be my default feedback to anyone claiming to be awake. 

[Inliytened1]

3 hours ago, StudentX said:

Awakening is not DP/DR and vice versa. DP is not the realization of "no-self", because in DP, there most definitely is a self left, and a rather scared one at that.

We make a distinction between what "I do" and "what hapens to me", and ordinary ego-consciousness identifies itself with "I do".

Depersonalization is simply the other side of that coin, where the ego identifies with "happens to me". It's simply a matter of different perspective, albeit a very sticky and nasty one.

Awakening feels like there's no difference between what you do and what happens, but to such a degree, that there isn't any "I do" and "happens to me" left, it's all just one harmonious process.

Solipsism often goes hand in hand with DP/DR, because the ego is still there and confuses it with enlightenment. 

Have you ever experienced DP?  I have.  And i have also experienced awakening to no self.  They are almost identical with the exception with raw DP you do not become Awareness itself..or Consciousness itself.  (Aka God)You are depersonalized but instead of a shift in identity there is simply no identity.  So it's a rather depersonalized experience no pun intended.  There is no bliss.  There is no Divinity or no Love.  But so it's like enlightenment without enlightenment so to speak.    When you do awake you will experience a type of DP  + God realization.   You guys might disagree but I have experienced both.

[Carl-Richard]

@Inliytened1 You could argue it involves the same mechanism, but the result is different. Bernardo Kastrup essentially argues this.

[Kksd74628]

@Consilience

There are 2 things I don't want, ultimate level of pain or being completely "crazy" in relative terms. Slight headache or little pain somewhere is not the problem, but still I prefer life without them and that is why I do things not to feel pain. I did strong determination sitting one time till the point that pain transferred to euphoria for a couple of seconds, because I realized that pain is just feeling and nothing else.

I could be without doing anything for long period of time, but that you wouldn't mind being tortured in normal day to day experience sounds pretty hardcore. That all being said I would like to have voice conversation with you if possible, because it seems that you could have something useful for me : ) 

[Inliytened1]

25 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

@Inliytened1 You could argue it involves the same mechanism, but the result is different. Bernardo Kastrup essentially argues this.

Yep

[stefm5]

3 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Have you ever experienced DP?  I have.  And i have also experienced awakening to no self.  They are almost identical with the exception with raw DP you do not become Awareness itself..or Consciousness itself.  (Aka God)You are depersonalized but instead of a shift in identity there is simply no identity.  So it's a rather depersonalized experience no pun intended.  There is no bliss.  There is no Divinity or no Love.  But so it's like enlightenment without enlightenment so to speak.    When you do awake you will experience a type of DP  + God realization.   You guys might disagree but I have experienced both.

this is exactly my feeling for the 'sonia' type of speakers. something is missing. it looks like a disorder along with the autistic language.

[ardacigin]

10 hours ago, stefm5 said:

Youtube has become full of people talking neo-advaitan stuff. There is nobody, there is no person, nothing to do blah blah. They all use a fixated language and the majority of them tying to sell no-thing in order to survive. 

While awakening is not a personal story, i don't see why denying what's apparently happening (life). This makes me wonder if they have depersonalization/derealization disorder mistaking it for awakening. On the other hand in which level depersonalization is awakening?

There is a girl 'Sonia' who in many of her videos cries. 'everything is dying' 'losing my parents' 'losing my dog' 'no goals' 'no career'. When in reality nothing has changed apart for her view on reality.

 

Here are my thoughts. I've just seen this person here and watched a few more of her videos to understand her better.

Some of her realizations are legit. Her self view seems to have significantly dropped. Which is the most critical insight for the 1st stage of awakening. If she is not a stream-enterer already, she is almost there. The key issue seems to be lack of practice, too much craving and obviously her traumatic reactions to spiritual truths.

She seems better adjusted and integrated certain things in her later videos.

Depersonalization has significant overlap with stream entry. If the mind doesnt recoil with trauma and maintains some sort of spiritual practice, stream entry is right around the corner. 

 

[Ry4n]

15 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

I've experienced both and they're not the same.

Same, they are almost the polar opposite in some ways. Moving into oneness feels like melting into everything, DP/DR feels like you're sinking into yourself and everything is getting further away from you. 

[Carl-Richard]

22 minutes ago, Ry4n said:

Same, they are almost the polar opposite in some ways. Moving into oneness feels like melting into everything, DP/DR feels like you're sinking into yourself and everything is getting further away from you. 

Bernardo Kastrup describes it like this:

DP/DR is when your separate self dissociates and loses touch with parts of itself. When the dissociation ends, you return to your previous self.

Separate self is when God dissociates and loses touch with parts of itself. When the dissociation ends, you return to Oneness.

[Inliytened1]

26 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Bernardo Kastrup describes it like this:

DP/DR is when your separate self dissociates and loses touch with parts of itself. When the dissociation ends, you return to your previous self.

Separate self is when God dissociates and loses touch with parts of itself. When the dissociation ends, you return to Oneness.

This is correct but incomplete..there is more.  When you become Oneness you also realize no self (small self) - you disassociate from the self or ego - which is DP.  Then you realize Self. 

They are entangled.

 If he was truly awake he would know this.  (Wituout psychedelics)

[Ry4n]

21 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

This is correct but incomplete..there is more.  When you become Oneness you also realize no self (small self) - you disassociate from the self or ego - which is DP.  Then you realize Self. 

They are entangled.

 If he was truly awake he would know this.  (Wituout psychedelics)

Everybody experiences these things differently no doubt, DP involves a lot more than just dissociating from ego but also being separated from all of existence like it's "over there" so to speak and you're just watching it as a seperate observer.

It's like with DP the void is there whilst the universe is "over there" , vs Enlightenment the void is like infinite empty space that contains everything, and understanding everything is contained within that births the sense of intimacy and connection, like the universe is inside you it's that intimate, vs the deep sense of separation that DP creates. DP creates a deep separation between form and formlessness, like the two have unplugged from each other, whilst in mystical states all distinctions between the two are lost.

Connecting absolute and relative, you could say the small self is a part within the totality of the whole, and Enlightenment is resting in that wholeness which includes the small self, rather than killing one part to move to another. That paradigm is still somewhat dualistic. Of course in the beginning dissociating from the ego may be necessary, but later on the two can be integrated together which is my definition of "riding the ox".

[Carl-Richard]

53 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

When you become Oneness you also realize no self (small self) - you disassociate from the self or ego - which is DP.  Then you realize Self. 

They are entangled.

I believe all of this is implied, except the highlighted part. I think it's just a semantic issue. In DP/DR, you dissociate, yes, but there is still an identification with a separate self. When the dissociation is more complete, it's awakening.

[Inliytened1]

14 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

I believe all of this is implied, except the highlighted part. I think it's just a semantic issue. In DP/DR, you dissociate, yes, but there is still an identification with a separate self. When the dissociation is more complete, it's awakening.

I knew you would highlight that part.  Because most people haven't experienced DP therefore they believe that no self is not DP

  Trust me on this it is.  With no self you will completely lose your sense of self.  The only difference is you will realize Self

  It is otherwise identical.   That said I'm sure there are gradiations of DP in which perhaps there is still some sense of self.   But with pure DP there is none

 

[VeganAwake]

16 hours ago, StudentX said:

Awakening is not DP/DR and vice versa. DP is not the realization of "no-self", because in DP, there most definitely is a self left, and a rather scared one at that.

We make a distinction between what "I do" and "what hapens to me", and ordinary ego-consciousness identifies itself with "I do".

Depersonalization is simply the other side of that coin, where the ego identifies with "happens to me". It's simply a matter of different perspective, albeit a very sticky and nasty one.

Awakening feels like there's no difference between what you do and what happens, but to such a degree, that there isn't any "I do" and "happens to me" left, it's all just one harmonious process.

Solipsism often goes hand in hand with DP/DR, because the ego is still there and confuses it with enlightenment. 

?