Transgender women (biological men) dominating women's sports

[Godhead]

@vizual There are plenty of females and males unable to reproduce - so are they not real males and females? 

Im not really trying to get an answer, just trying to show you that there are always edge cases. 

[vizual]

10 minutes ago, Godhead said:

@vizual There are plenty of females and males unable to reproduce - so are they not real males and females? 

Im not really trying to get an answer, just trying to show you that there are always edge cases. 

Let's say I have a pair of dice. And each die has 1 million sides. 499,999 sides are pink(representing female), other 499,999 sides are blue(male), 1 side is orange(non-sex), and 1 side is green(binary-sex). Do you think it's fair that the observation we make in 999,998 of dice rolls are to be totally disregarded(being clearly either pink or blue evenly distributed) because in 2 in a million rolls we roll something differently(orange or green)?

We can still be rational about sexes(male and female) while still acknowledging outliers. It does not have to be one or the other. 

Edited March 29, 2022 by vizual

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Bobby_2021 said:

So what? Everyone here knows this.

People seem to be missing the context. Leo essentially said constructions are imperfect (hence the desire to deconstruct them), and some guy responded with confusion, thinking that he said constructions aren't useful, and I just reiterated the point (in maybe a bit too abstract way, sure).

[Godhead]

@vizual about 1/3 of females cannot reproduce because they are too young, too old or other reasons. With all metrics you'll find plenty of cases which won't fit on to that binary spectrum. 

36 minutes ago, vizual said:

Do you think it's fair that the observation we make in 999,998 of dice rolls are to be totally disregarded

I never said to disregard anything. I'm just saying that it would be dishonest to say that the dice are completly pink or completly blue. Your example disregards that there are dozens of metrics which can be used to define whether one is male or female, there is no objevtivity. We could use behavior, mental identification, genes, physical characteristics, etc. . General consesus is that we use chromosomes for that. Yet there are people with XY Chromosomes and Vaginas. The point is, we can create categorizations if we want, but they should be recognized as such. The map is not the territory. 

[something_else]

1 hour ago, Godhead said:

I never said to disregard anything. I'm just saying that it would be dishonest to say that the dice are completly pink or completly blue. Your example disregards that there are dozens of metrics which can be used to define whether one is male or female, there is no objevtivity. We could use behavior, mental identification, genes, physical characteristics, etc. . General consesus is that we use chromosomes for that. Yet there are people with XY Chromosomes and Vaginas. The point is, we can create categorizations if we want, but they should be recognized as such. The map is not the territory. 

Yea I like this explanation

Not accepting that there are midpoints between male and female seems like such a strange hill to die on to me. Just acknowledge that the construction of gender/sex isn’t perfect and has enough edge cases and blurred lines that we need to be open to deconstructing it a little bit and handling those edge cases healthily

It doesn’t even affect the vast majority of people’s lives to accept this fact

@vizual Btw your numbers are way off. There are estimates that put the rate of people born with some intersex traits as high as 1.7% (roughly 1 in 60) of the population. Similar to the number born with red hair.

Again it depends on your definition of intersex, the lower bound with the most conservative and strict definition is 0.05% (1 in 2,000). Either way it is far from negligible

The fact we can’t even precisely define exactly what constitutes intersex is also worth noting here

[Danioover9000]

@Bobby_2021

12 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

All of these things are higher for men(people with balls) and lower for people without it, since balls make a lot of Testosterone during the formative years and that leads to higher muscle mass, height etc.

That's why we created categories for people with balls and without it. 

If people are not even going to respect that you can forget about making things fair over subtle advantages like recent test levels, height etc.

You can deconstruct whatever you want sitting inside your room. But forfeiting the benifits of constructions is insane unless you have something else in place. Constructions are made with a specific purpose in mind.

 

@vladorion

"If they're constructions then it should make no difference to you whom to have sex with, a man or a woman."

That's also my point. You can deconstruct something and still enjoy the benifits of constructions. Plus the people allowing this madness haven't deconstructed anything. They are doing it for political reasons.

 

 

 

   I think the main issue, is not recognizing that a person can deconstruct some categories, but still have the same or similar behaviour prior to the deconstruction. You can be self honest and aware about the construction, but that does not translate to a significant behaviour change suddenly.

   In a self defense situation, regardless of realizing non duality and the attacker is you and vife versa, it does little to alter behaviours necessary for your survival, despite some of the outcomes of that self defense being death to the attacker.

[Danioover9000]

@Arcangelo

9 hours ago, Arcangelo said:

https://nypost.com/2022/03/18/parents-of-ivy-league-swimmers-write-letting-lia-thomas-swim-isnt-fair/

“Grossly unfair,” say the parents of college swimmers who have been competing against trans athlete Lia Thomas, who won the 500-yard freestyle at last weekend’s NCAA Division I Women’s Swimming and Diving Championships.

“Women deserve fairness without caveat,” the parents wrote in an open letter, “and they should not be asked to shoulder the mental health of others at their own expense. A male body cannot become a female body. A woman is not a disadvantaged man.”

Many of Thomas’s teammates at the University of Pennsylvania agree. “Biologically, Lia holds an unfair advantage over competition in the women’s category, as evidenced by her rankings that have bounced from #462 as a male to #1 as a female,” they wrote, in an earlier letter.

“No, it wasn’t fair,” agreed Caitlyn Jenner, who won the 1976 men’s Olympic decathlon before transitioning four decades later, “it’s not a fair fight.”

and

"We are furious and most everyone in our community is furious as well. Parents, coaches, swimmers, and rational, logical people know this is grossly unfair. Female swimmers have not consented to this. In fact, many of them expressly said no. What response did they receive?

 

Ivy League swimmers told not to talk to media about Lia Thomas: parents

Be quiet. A new ideology ruled. “Transwomen are women” no exceptions; the girls’ concerns: “transphobic.”

   One example of people with stage blue/orange values reacting to their construction being deconstructed.

[vladorion]

56 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Arcangelo

   One example of people with stage blue/orange values reacting to their construction being deconstructed.

That's people reacting to unfairness, not to their construction being deconstructed.

That's not how things get deconstructed.

[Danioover9000]

@vladorion

28 minutes ago, vladorion said:

That's people reacting to unfairness, not to their construction being deconstructed.

That's not how things get deconstructed.

   Unfairness and deconstruction are similar, either way people will have a reaction if there are multiple differences that are too great to reconcile in a person's mind. Saying that it's unfairness rather than deconstruction isn't an argument.

[Tech36363]

2 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

https://nypost.com/2022/03/18/parents-of-ivy-league-swimmers-write-letting-lia-thomas-swim-isnt-fair/

“Grossly unfair,” say the parents of college swimmers who have been competing against trans athlete Lia Thomas, who won the 500-yard freestyle at last weekend’s NCAA Division I Women’s Swimming and Diving Championships.

nypost is far right extremist media source 

[Consept]

1 hour ago, vladorion said:

That's people reacting to unfairness, not to their construction being deconstructed.

That's not how things get deconstructed.

But isnt unfair that if youre under 6 foot your most likely not gonna play in the nba? In theory if we want things to be fair we would have to have countless categories so that everyone could get a chance to play the sport professionally. If not then it would make sense just to have the best players compete without any exceptions. As a society we chose not to do that mainly because genetically gifted, athletic men would dominate completely, so no one else would get a chance. This is why it was necessary to construct categories like a female category or disabled etc. But really recognise these categories are completely made up, they dont have to exist and dont even really make sense when you really contemplate. If youre the fastest woman in the world but the 5000th fastest human it only becomes relevant with categories, if we were in the wild and had to run from predators no one would care lol. 

So yes of course these categories can be deconstructed, I think some categories are useful though and its good to have womens sport and disabled sport etc if it needs to be reworked or new categories need to come in then it is what it is. Ultimately the market will decide what it wants to see. 

[Razard86]

On 3/27/2022 at 5:43 AM, Godhead said:

They aren't dominating women's sports. I'm not saying that there isn't the possibility that they might have some sort of advantage due to bone structure or whatever, but they aren't dominating. You and far-right media are making this up. 

Why? Do you watch women's sports? No? Then chill out. You don't really care about women's sports. You are just looking for an excuse to get mad about bs and justify your transphobia.

 

This is completely false. TransAthletes DO dominate female sports. I was an exercise scientist student in college. If you knew the amount of physical advantages a MALE body has over a FEMALE body after puberty you wouldn't be making these statements.

To put it in perspective. A grown elite female athlete is comparable to elite 15-18 year olds. So a 25 to 30 year old woman can get beat in a sport by a 15 to 18 year old.

Serena Williams is by many accounts the greatest female tennis player of all-time. She cannot even beat a Male Tennis player that is ranked at 200. The gap in sports between men and women is huge by a ridiculous margin. So NO its not transphobia.

Just type in transgender dominating women's sports its happening all the time

Edited March 29, 2022 by Razard86

[Consept]

@Razard86

Yes obvs the male body on average has advantages over the female byt what specific sports are trans women actually dominating? I don't see any trans women dominating ufc or the wnba,  or tennis etc. To be dominant you would have to point to a specific trans woman who is at the top of the female division in a sport.

[Godhead]

 

1 hour ago, Razard86 said:

Just type in transgender dominating women's sports its happening all the time

You can type "lose weight while eating bacon" into google and you'll get millions of results. This is not how you come to useful conclusions.

 I was gonna respond to the rest, but @Consept beat me to it.

You are misrepresenting what I said.

[Razard86]

33 minutes ago, Godhead said:

 

You can type "lose weight while eating bacon" into google and you'll get millions of results. This is not how you come to useful conclusions.

 I was gonna respond to the rest, but @Consept beat me to it.

You are misrepresenting what I said.

Sigh you are just playing word games. Its not about typing in random results. But since you are claiming to have a point. Make your point.

1. How much of an advantage do men have over women in sports? How much of that advantage can be reduce by training?

2. How much distance is there between the strongest man in the world and the strongest woman in the world. What about the fastest? How much does hormones play? How much does the anatomy of a man and woman influence these differences?

If you do not know the answers to these questions then you do not have any credibility and are just talking from a place of ignorance. You are welcome to do that. But as a guy who studied exercise science and physical education and competed with against men and women in practice on my cross country and track team I know from BOTH research and personal experience how wide the gap is. I can EASILY give you examples.

 

Here is one. There was a transgender fighter who fought in a martial arts tournament and CRACKED the skull of a female fighter WITH A PUNCH!!! There is a reason that happened and its a reason you choose to willfully ignore.

https://thebridgehead.ca/2021/11/02/a-transgender-fighter-cracked-his-female-opponents-skull-how-long-will-this-insanity-continue/

Edited March 29, 2022 by Razard86

[Consept]

@Razard86

Sometimes in these debates people just kind of end up talking past each other. You seem to be making the claim that men are physically more athletic on average and when it comes to professional sports will most of the time come out on top, therefore making it unfair for men and women to compete (trans included). I dont think anyone is disputing this, if they are it would be a silly argument as its quite obvious. 

3 hours ago, Razard86 said:

TransAthletes DO dominate female sports

The dispute is in this statement, i think it would be pretty hard to make the argument that trans athletes dominant any sport. To dominate a sport youre talking about being at the top level of that sport and this is just not the case. Apart from obscure Polish mma you wont find that many competing at a high level. Dont confuse this with some may have the potential to or that they have an advantage. Now there could be a number of reasons for that they dont dominate female sports, it could be that theres such a small number of trans people, relatively speaking, that theres unlikely to be a pool that are going to compete at a high level at every female sport, it could be that they just dont want to compete because they feel its unfair, whatever the reasons there isnt a massive issue with trans-women taking over female sports, even with it being more acceptable to be trans now. So again i think this issue is way over blown imo

[Godhead]

1 hour ago, Razard86 said:

Sigh you are just playing word games. Its not about typing in random results. But since you are claiming to have a point. Make your point.

1. How much of an advantage do men have over women in sports? How much of that advantage can be reduce by training?

2. How much distance is there between the strongest man in the world and the strongest woman in the world. What about the fastest? How much does hormones play? How much does the anatomy of a man and woman influence these differences?

If you do not know the answers to these questions then you do not have any credibility and are just talking from a place of ignorance. You are welcome to do that. But as a guy who studied exercise science and physical education and competed with against men and women in practice on my cross country and track team I know from BOTH research and personal experience how wide the gap is. I can EASILY give you examples.

 

Here is one. There was a transgender fighter who fought in a martial arts tournament and CRACKED the skull of a female fighter WITH A PUNCH!!! There is a reason that happened and its a reason you choose to willfully ignore.

https://thebridgehead.ca/2021/11/02/a-transgender-fighter-cracked-his-female-opponents-skull-how-long-will-this-insanity-continue/

sorry, I'm not really interested in interacting with you. You give off weird toxic vibes.

That being said the example cited is pretty silly, it was an orbital bone fracture, which happens pretty regularly in contact sports. And as far as I know, the person lost a ton of matches ever since.

[Danioover9000]

@Tech36363

5 hours ago, Tech36363 said:

nypost is far right extremist media source 

   Firstly, you are misquoting me like I'm the one sourcing that, actually it's this user @Arcangelo :

5 hours ago, Tech36363 said:

https://nypost.com/2022/03/18/parents-of-ivy-league-swimmers-write-letting-lia-thomas-swim-isnt-fair/

“Grossly unfair,” say the parents of college swimmers who have been competing against trans athlete Lia Thomas, who won the 500-yard freestyle at last weekend’s NCAA Division I Women’s Swimming and Diving Championships.

   So if you have any objections or rebuttals, on my points instead of using underhanded shit like this. Next time I'm reporting and sending you to ignore section.

[Ry4n]

#462 as a male, #1 as a female

Of course there will always be genetic, unfair advantages in sports, but it is a matter of DEGREES guys, and it is clear that the physical difference between a male athlete with the body composition that results from male puberty and a regular woman FAR exceeds what any logical person would consider acceptable; no matter how much hormone therapy the person goes through it will not erase the physical development that occurred when their body was naturally being pumped full of testosterone in their teenage years. 

IF, however a transgender male were to compete they would willingly be putting themselves at a disadvantage which is a very different scenario than willingly putting yourself at a monstrous advantage. 

Not to mention that most sports should have weight/height classes the way that UFC does, and if it doesn't (which is wrong) that is still no licence to continue adding to the unfairness that may occur in competitive sport.

TLDR; this is fucking stupid and we all know it.

[no_name]

@Danioover9000 yeah, definitely would never enter a bathroom/changing room that has a camera inside

My point was, I understand that transgender females would also not be comfortable in a male bathroom, that is why I think a third type of bathroom makes for an easy solution.

For sports, I think it’s too hard to quantify the difference between men/women, it’s not just testosterone… women have wider hips, lower height, more fat, narrower shoulders, breasts, menstruate for 3-7 days a month… Honestly periods alone are a big obstacle for sports, periods are more often than not accompanied by severe cramps, fatigue, migraines, sore breasts, fever, menstrual cycles with all kinds of hormonal ups and downs..  many women have to take painkillers/stay in bed during their period.. even if a trans woman transitions and has the surgery before puberty (idk if there are actual cases of that) there will still be these differences/advantages in sport for them.

Of course I do understand that transgender women want to compete as well, but it would, generally, be unfair to the other women. While you can quantify differences between women, height/weight/muscle %, I do not think you can compare biological women vs. biological men that easily. 
 

 

Edited March 30, 2022 by no_name