Transgender women (biological men) dominating women's sports

[Danioover9000]

@Bobby_2021

43 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

After thinking on this issue and putting myself in the shoes of different people, and listening to multiple perspectives I realised that sports is all about winning.

You play to win. Lia did what's she had to do to win. She is a champion. That's all there is to the story. Sports is meant to be brutally competent & ruthless.

As for women arguing for fairness, I would say this is an unfair world, where genetics matters the most in sports (and nearly everything else) and those who win will have the best genetics. Biological men have better genetics than all other genders. So the winners will be biological men, in literally almost everything.

So if you are in sports, do what it takes to win just like Lia did. More power to her.

Whining about unfairness is not sportsmanship.

   There's a bit more involved with sports in general, but I do agree that it's mainly about competency and competitiveness. If you personally value competency and competitiveness, then sports might be in alignment with those values. If you have a balanced mind and body bias, or more body bias, then a sports hobby or taking a career that involves some kind of sports might be ideal.

   With more thinking about Leo's position, the main problem with reducing sports and combat sports into it's just genetics and body composition is that it factors out the training and skill development involved into performing those movements. Another problem is that it's subtly discriminates those who actually are passionate about what they're doing as well. Such people do exist that like and love to do sports, so what are we going to do about those people with a body/kinesthetic dominant mind and intelligence?

Edited April 13, 2022 by Danioover9000

[zurew]

2 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

I realised that sports is all about winning.

For you it might be , but for me its not only about winning.

I think the effort part is a really key element here. What make people interested watching sports? Only the performance, or knowing the real hard work behind the performance? I think its both, for me the hard work behind the scenes is more important. Of course i wouldnt know every detail, but i can assume it, especially if no performance enhancing drugs are involved at a certain event. I think its important to keep certain categories for fairness, so athletes with different talents and intention can compete for the best place.

You could argue, that even if someone is taking PEDS or steroids they need to work hard etc etc. Yes, but your judging and assumption about how hard they had to work to achieve what they achieved will be really hard.

Its much more harder to create a more even field, when you can take every substance under the sun imo.

For example, if there are some bodybuilders who wants to know totally their full natural potential, i don't want to rob them from the possibility to compete at a natural event. With more options more desires and goals can be fulfilled.

But if i mix up the whole field ,then natural athletes won't have any attention, and they won't have any more reason the compete. They can have some reason to compete but only if they go all in and willing to take the risks that steroid taking involves.

I think we should think about athletes that are doing sports because it provides them the money that they need. if we mix everything up without any categories, then a lot of people will be forced to take PED and steroids or to do something else.Most of those wouldn't take the unnatural way of doing sports but they are forced now if they want to continue their career. 

Edited April 13, 2022 by zurew

[Thought Art]

[Bobby_2021]

@Danioover9000I wish sports can have such idealistic goals behind them as we used to do it in the past.

This situation is a political one. I would encourage more people to identify as their convenient gender to win. So the authorities will have to either make new categories or stop this madness, which I don't expect them to.

None of this changes the fact that sports is entirely about winning. This is the only reason why sports is played at the elite level. Anything that you can do to win is fair.

If you disagree, then you can do it too.

 

[vladorion]

On 4/13/2022 at 10:00 AM, Bobby_2021 said:

After thinking on this issue and putting myself in the shoes of different people, and listening to multiple perspectives I realised that sports is all about winning.

You play to win. Lia did what's she had to do to win. She is a champion. That's all there is to the story. Sports is meant to be brutally competent & ruthless.

As for women arguing for fairness, I would say this is an unfair world, where genetics matters the most in sports (and nearly everything else) and those who win will have the best genetics. Biological men have better genetics than all other genders. So the winners will be biological men, in literally almost everything.

So if you are in sports, do what it takes to win just like Lia did. More power to her.

Whining about unfairness is not sportsmanship.

That's a flawed logic.

Just because sports is about winning doesn't mean anything goes.

For example, I like playing chess, and yes it's about winning; however I'm not interested in winning by cheating. For me that win doesn't count as a win even if everyone else thinks it is.

Cheating might be a way to get results. Doesn't mean it's a good way.

It's interesting that you talk about sportsmanship while encouraging cheating.

[Danioover9000]

@vladorion

1 hour ago, vladorion said:

That's a flawed logic.

Just because sports is about winning doesn't mean anything goes.

For example, I like playing chess, and yes it's about winning; however I'm not interested in winning by cheating. For me that win doesn't count as a win even if everyone else thinks it is.

Cheating might be a way to get results. Doesn't mean it's a good way.

It's interesting that you talk about sportsmanship while encouraging cheating.

   This is also considered flawed logic as well. Just because sports is mostly about winning, doesn't mean anything goes, doesn't make a valid and sound argument.

   For example, in your chest analogy, the ultimate goal of chess is winning via checkmate, by taking turns moving pieces and by thinking. When a person struggles to calculate and visualize sequences and hold the chess pieces and board mentally in their minds, against players with a much higher rating, some inevitably lose the match, then play slightly lower rated players/play chess puzzles and do other mental exercises to improve their chess thinking, or, some tend to use the chess engines and A.I programs as reviews and sometimes while playing chess. Some tournaments have A.I based chess matches and sometimes tournaments.

   So, if you're equating trans and other gender roles in sports and combat sports as the 'cheating' or 'A.I chess engines' that give an 'unfair advantage' then, like in your hypothetical, there should be a section in sports/combat sports, that includes trans people, performing in the same weight division with other parameters as close as possible to limit further advantages in body composition, skills and genetics.

[Mafortu]

Either you make a category for trans athletes, or you simply delete all categories and all sexes and genders play with each other without distinction. 

Either way, unfairness is just part of the nature of competition, someone will always have an advantage and no one ever plays on equal ground.

[Bobby_2021]

@Danioover9000 @vladorion I am not saying those things with conviction. It's certainly dosen't help fairness and is a disrespect to women's sports.

I accept that. But difficult times calls for difficult measures.

[Bobby_2021]

8 hours ago, Mafortu said:

delete all categories and all sexes and genders play with each other without distinction. 

Agreed. Apparently if gender is a social construct this is the ideal thing to do. But we have to deal with this stage green madness anyway. Hope these will be reversed soon, else more people will start identifying with these genders just to win.

[zurew]

5 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Agreed. Apparently if gender is a social construct this is the ideal thing to do.

But gender isn't the problem though, but sex is. Gender is an inner image of yourself.

That is why, it can become a mess if we are only focusing on gender and not sex. Social constructions have their own practical consequences. Just because something is a social construct that does not mean, that it need to be abandoned immediately. 

For example, our whole economic system is a social construct. We made a system that we all play along with.

Sex has its own practical categorizational usage, for example when you go to a doctor you won't be treated based on your gender(inner image of yourself) but based on your sex(biological traits).

Sports are based on biology and not on self image. 

The reason for categorising based on sex was to create a more equal playingfield for women.

We can abandon all these categories but then we will need to be aware of some consequences:

1. There won't be any natural competitions (because anyone can use anything for their transition)
2. Women will probably compete a lot less because they won't have any chance to be anywhere near the top, they will lose a lot of their sponsors, most women who have had a career as a professional before, will lose her job

Now, i think we can all agree that it will mostly  cause damage for biological women. We can say that sports are tough , reality is unfair so realise that and stay with that. But we are not really consistent with that statement when we are talking about other systems.

For example, if we are talking about economics, in the past you could make a lot of money using your physical strength so men dominated. We didn't stay with that we created new jobs and tools to make physical differences matter a lot less. Right now intellectual difference is a factor, but most intellectual differences can be evened out too in the far future, because of Artificial intelligence and DNA changing. 

So most of the time, we won't just stay with the raw facts of reality, but we want to make reality more equal with creating new systems and tools.

13 hours ago, Mafortu said:

Either you make a category for trans athletes, or you simply delete all categories and all sexes and genders play with each other without distinction. 

Either way, unfairness is just part of the nature of competition, someone will always have an advantage and no one ever plays on equal ground.

I don't think its good to stay with this black and white thinking that sports are either totally equal or not. Just because no one plays on a totally equal ground that does not automatically mean, that all the factors that are made to make a field more equal should be abandoned.

Most of the arguments about this sport topic is around opportunity vs outcome. I think most of you guys are focusing on the outcome more and not really paying that much attention for the opportunity. ( sports are about winning so who cares who wins and with what tools - focus on outcome vs sports are mostly about winning , but if we make certain categorizations we can give opportunity for people more people to be able to win and more people will feel the need and motivation to compete, because they can think that they have some chance - focusing on the opportunity part)

Edited April 18, 2022 by zurew

[Arcangelo]

14 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

stage green madness

^Exactly

[thibault]

Regarding all these discussions on transgenderism, I think it is much more useful to look at it from look at it from the larger transhumanist view, otherwise none of it makes any sense.

 

If we assume that we are moving to an era where we are going to be pushing the limits of our bodies through electronic implants, genetic modifications and the like then we can assume that sports will move towards a single category where winning means having talent as well as the best technology much like Formula 1. Imagine cyborg fights, races in the sky, etc... If we think this is where the world is going then all these trans discussions make sense. Otherwise they don't. You decide.

[Consept]

4 hours ago, thibault said:

Regarding all these discussions on transgenderism, I think it is much more useful to look at it from look at it from the larger transhumanist view, otherwise none of it makes any sense.

 

If we assume that we are moving to an era where we are going to be pushing the limits of our bodies through electronic implants, genetic modifications and the like then we can assume that sports will move towards a single category where winning means having talent as well as the best technology much like Formula 1. Imagine cyborg fights, races in the sky, etc... If we think this is where the world is going then all these trans discussions make sense. Otherwise they don't. You decide.

No doubt this will be the case in the future but i think there will always be a space made available for people without those enhancements. For example in the body building world many people compete using steroids but there are also many 'natural' competitions. If you think about the whole womens category in sport in general it has been specifically protected from men because men will have an advantage over them. So i think there will always be an effort to have 'natural' competitions, the popularity of them may change but who knows

[Danioover9000]

   Another interesting debate on this issue, with Destiny again:

   What are your thoughts about this? The progressive debater too triggered? Destiny too fixed in his ways? Comment below!

[Bobby_2021]

What her fellow teammates had to say about Lia Thomas competing alongside biological women. 

I have a feeling that these kinds of minor and stupid things like including biological men alongside biological women in prison & sports is going to generate backlash from normal, well meaning people who would otherwise support the trans people in everything else.

Edited June 13, 2022 by Bobby_2021

[Arcangelo]

I am going zero percent too.

[Bobby_2021]

Justice served. Glad that there is still some sanity left in this world.

Trans women athletes banned from participating in women's sports. (Including Lia Thomas)

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/world-swimming-new-policy-transgender-athletes/

https://twitter.com/DailyMail/status/1538592472586141697?t=0QxmBV7MneBCJ4JZ4f2Tww&s=19

Edited June 20, 2022 by Bobby_2021

[Arcangelo]

^This is a triumph.

It was about time for a little common sense.

[Arcangelo]

On 3/26/2022 at 4:33 PM, Arcangelo said:

I feel anger and frustration because it is cheating.

I feel anger and frustration because it goes to show that the world has gone mad.

Today I feel at peace.

Thank you Bob!

[Razard86]

On 4/18/2022 at 5:31 AM, zurew said:

But gender isn't the problem though, but sex is. Gender is an inner image of yourself.

That is why, it can become a mess if we are only focusing on gender and not sex. Social constructions have their own practical consequences. Just because something is a social construct that does not mean, that it need to be abandoned immediately. 

For example, our whole economic system is a social construct. We made a system that we all play along with.

Sex has its own practical categorizational usage, for example when you go to a doctor you won't be treated based on your gender(inner image of yourself) but based on your sex(biological traits).

Sports are based on biology and not on self image. 

The reason for categorising based on sex was to create a more equal playingfield for women.

We can abandon all these categories but then we will need to be aware of some consequences:

1. There won't be any natural competitions (because anyone can use anything for their transition)
2. Women will probably compete a lot less because they won't have any chance to be anywhere near the top, they will lose a lot of their sponsors, most women who have had a career as a professional before, will lose her job

Now, i think we can all agree that it will mostly  cause damage for biological women. We can say that sports are tough , reality is unfair so realise that and stay with that. But we are not really consistent with that statement when we are talking about other systems.

For example, if we are talking about economics, in the past you could make a lot of money using your physical strength so men dominated. We didn't stay with that we created new jobs and tools to make physical differences matter a lot less. Right now intellectual difference is a factor, but most intellectual differences can be evened out too in the far future, because of Artificial intelligence and DNA changing. 

So most of the time, we won't just stay with the raw facts of reality, but we want to make reality more equal with creating new systems and tools.

I don't think its good to stay with this black and white thinking that sports are either totally equal or not. Just because no one plays on a totally equal ground that does not automatically mean, that all the factors that are made to make a field more equal should be abandoned.

Most of the arguments about this sport topic is around opportunity vs outcome. I think most of you guys are focusing on the outcome more and not really paying that much attention for the opportunity. ( sports are about winning so who cares who wins and with what tools - focus on outcome vs sports are mostly about winning , but if we make certain categorizations we can give opportunity for people more people to be able to win and more people will feel the need and motivation to compete, because they can think that they have some chance - focusing on the opportunity part)

Sex is a social construct. Its why I hate the way the word gender is used. Because its just another word to describe the same thing that is claimed to be different. Sex is a social construct. If you argue this, then you don't know what a social construct is. I'll give you a clue....language is a social construct. It was "constructed." To aid in socialization.

Edited June 20, 2022 by Razard86