Transgender women (biological men) dominating women's sports

[Andyforreal]

People here lol, trying to act all spiritual like we're on a competition, taking away rationality

Really is that transgender people are a hole in a rulebook because people vote with feelings not reason

And making a separate trans/non binary section would be perfect but it won't happen for multiple reasons

[vizual]

It's nonsense that male/female is just a conceptual construct. Animals don't conceptualize, yet, they know very well the difference between a member of their own sex, and a member of the opposite sex. It's a joke that people that somehow just invented that somewhere along the way. It's like saying the moon is just a conceptual construc - and therefore doesn't really exist - because people made up the word 'moon'. This is just lunacy.

Edited March 29, 2022 by vizual

[Bobby_2021]

4 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

All differences are constructions.

So what? Everyone here knows this.

[Joel3102]

Gender is a construction, but it’s a pretty useful construction because most people are attached to a gender role. 
Because it’s a construction, we can shift the definition of a “woman” to include trans women, because it serves a useful purpose.

Saying because gender is a construction therefore anything goes in sports is silly 

[Godhead]

2 hours ago, Arcangelo said:

''They expressed how uncomfortable the locker rooms were with male nudity.''

Come on guys.

Let's get real.

Just to make sure, do you think this person should go to female bath and locker rooms?

Edited March 29, 2022 by Godhead

[Asayake]

5 minutes ago, vizual said:

It's nonsense that male/female is just a conceptual construct. Animals don't conceptualize, yet, they know very well the difference between a member of their own sex, and a member of the opposite sex. It's a joke that people that somehow just invented that somewhere along the way. It's like saying the moon is just a conceptual construc - and therefore doesn't really exist - because people made up the word 'moon'. This is just lunacy.

I agree with you sort of but at the same time.. male, female, moon, animal, it's all just concepts isn't it? Once upon a time people didn't view the sun as a radiating ball made up of atoms, maybe they didn't think so much about it as people do today but instead just looked at it in awe. There was no moon there, there was just what is. So in that sense the moon as we think of it doesn't really exist. 

As far as the transwoman competing with biological women it's obviously unfair because the biological women don't have the same amount of hormones or the same body structure as a transwoman. So is biological women against biological women though. Isn't it just a biological lottery who will win, viewed through a biological lense? How is it fair that one woman is borne with a worse cardiovascular system than another one? The genetically unlucky one stands no chance.

[vizual]

4 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

All differences are constructions.

Then literally everything you say is just a construction, and can be discarded as false and not worth listening to. Including that statement. 

And in such a culture it's the minority at the power hierarchy that gets to define what is true and false. 2 + 2 = 5, you are free to do as we tell you etc.

[Godhead]

8 minutes ago, Godhead said:

@vizual If you see this person the street, will you assume that they are male or female? Or would you like to check for their Chromosomes first?

[vizual]

2 minutes ago, Asayake said:

I agree with you sort of but at the same time.. male, female, moon, animal, it's all just concepts isn't it? Once upon a time people didn't view the sun as a radiating ball made up of atoms, maybe they didn't think so much about it as people do today but instead just looked at it in awe. There was no moon there, there was just what is. So in that sense the moon as we think of it doesn't really exist. 

As far as the transwoman competing with biological women it's obviously unfair because the biological women don't have the same amount of hormones or the same body structure as a transwoman. So is biological women against biological women though. Isn't it just a biological lottery who will win, viewed through a biological lense? How is it fair that one woman is borne with a worse cardiovascular system than another one? The genetically unlucky one stands no chance.

There is never a level playing field because it's never meant to be. Men are generally physically stronger, but women live longer. Some people are intellectually gifted, but not athletically gifted, and vice versa. Some people are better built for long distance running, while other people are better at sprinting because of muscle fiber differences.

But of course there are still people who definitely have genetic disadvantages. If you are short you are not going to make it in the NBA. If you have Down syndrome you are not going to make it in any professional sport most likely, that's why they created the special olympics. We can also say that Down Syndrome is just a social construct, but does that really help anyone?

[something_else]

17 minutes ago, vizual said:

It's nonsense that male/female is just a conceptual construct. Animals don't conceptualize, yet, they know very well the difference between a member of their own sex, and a member of the opposite sex. It's a joke that people that somehow just invented that somewhere along the way. It's like saying the moon is just a conceptual construc - and therefore doesn't really exist - because people made up the word 'moon'. This is just lunacy.

If you take a human male and a human female and start replacing parts of the male with parts of the female atom by atom, at some point they become female. When is that? If male and female are not conceptual constructs like you say then you must be able to point at a concrete line during this process at which the male becomes female

If you can't tell me exactly where that line is, then there is no concrete boundary between male and female in your mind

It's not even like this is mental masturbation, because intersex people are literal examples of this thought experiment

[vladorion]

51 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

The point is that the construction isn't perfectly practical, because the world isn't dichotomous.

It's very practical. And the world is dichotomous. Creation is based in polarity. 

 

[vizual]

4 minutes ago, Godhead said:

@vizual If you see this person the street, will you assume that they are male or female? Or would you like to check for their Chromosomes first?

My assumptions do not matter in this case, because my assumptions won't change the female biology of that person. I'm fine with acknowledging that that person is born a woman, but prefers to be a man. But I won't acknowledge that that is a biological male when it was born a female.

[Joel3102]

1 minute ago, vladorion said:

It's very practical. And the world is dichotomous. Creation is based in polarity. 

 

It’s extremely practical, that’s why people become trans women. If it didn’t matter at all, people would feel no need to transition on the first place. 

[Asayake]

4 minutes ago, vizual said:

There is never a level playing field because it's never meant to be. Men are generally physically stronger, but women live longer. Some people are intellectually gifted, but not athletically gifted, and vice versa. Some people are better built for long distance running, while other people are better at sprinting because of muscle fiber differences.

But of course there are still people who definitely have genetic disadvantages. If you are short you are not going to make it in the NBA. If you have Down syndrome you are not going to make it in any professional sport most likely, that's why they created the special olympics. We can also say that Down Syndrome is just a social construct, but does that really help anyone?

I do agree with your point. Practically it doesn't really seem to matter that it's just a construct. I prefer watching biological women compete with eachother and biological men with eachother because the competition feels more real. Even if it all still comes down to being a genetic lottery in the end. As many other things it's an illusion but it's more enjoyable to not constantly point that out.

[vladorion]

2 minutes ago, something_else said:

If you take a human male and a human female and start replacing parts of the male with parts of the female atom by atom, at some point they become female. When is that? If male and female are not conceptual constructs like you say then you must be able to point at a concrete line during this process at which the male becomes female

If you can't tell me exactly where that line is, then there is no concrete boundary between male and female in your mind

It's not even like this is mental masturbation, because intersex people are literal examples of this thought experiment

This kind of philosophical deconstruction is useful to realize emptiness, yet on a practical level nothing changes. Clouds are clouds and mountains are mountains. A man is a man, a woman is a woman. 

[vizual]

5 minutes ago, something_else said:

If you take a human male and a human female and start replacing parts of the male with parts of the female atom by atom, at some point they become female. When is that? If male and female are not conceptual constructs like you say then you must be able to point at a concrete line during this process at which the male becomes female

If you can't tell me exactly where that line is, then there is no concrete boundary between male and female in your mind

It's not even like this is mental masturbation, because intersex people are literal examples of this thought experiment

Why would I even listen or talk to you, because you can't also point toward the instance that you were created. You are also just a 'construct' then. I can discard you if I want to because I can't pinpoint when in the biological cycle you were created. If I killed you it doesn't matter, you can not point toward a concrete line of your creation.

[something_else]

Just now, vizual said:

Why would I even listen or talk to you, because you can't also point toward the instance that you were created. You are also just a 'construct' then. I can discard you if I want to because I can't pinpoint when in the biological cycle you were created. If I killed you it doesn't matter, you can not point toward a concrete line of your creation.

I mean... yes...

Our brains want to divide up reality into neat little boxes because it's useful. But some of those boxes are going to fall apart more easily than others. As it turns out, gender seems to be one where there are a lot of cases that blur the lines and so we need to account for that

3 minutes ago, vladorion said:

This kind of philosophical deconstruction is useful to realize emptiness, yet on a practical level nothing changes. Clouds are clouds and mountains are mountains. A man is a man, a woman is a woman. 

Except intersex people, who are literally both

[Godhead]

8 minutes ago, vizual said:

My assumptions do not matter in this case, because my assumptions won't change the female biology of that person. I'm fine with acknowledging that that person is born a woman, but prefers to be a man. But I won't acknowledge that that is a biological male when it was born a female.

So you see that there is a distinction between sex and gender, cool. 

Can you define what exactly is female biology or what attributes a human needs to posess to be categorized as female in your mind? And what happens if a "female" does not posess those qualities? Not even sex is as black as white as people make it out to be. The point is that in "reality" there isn't such a thing as male or female. It is a categorization made by humans, it can be a useful one, but that doesn't make it true. 

Yes even the moon is a mental contruction, Yes even the self is mental construction. That doesn't mean that they can't be useful constructions or that we should disregard the existence of the moon. 

[vladorion]

 

3 minutes ago, something_else said:

Except intersex people, who are literally both

Yeah, abnormalities happen.

[vizual]

5 minutes ago, Godhead said:

So you see that there is a distinction between sex and gender, cool. 

Can you define what exactly is female biology or what attributes a human needs to posess to be categorized as female in your mind? And what happens if a "female" does not posess those qualities? Not even sex is as black as white as people make it out to be. The point is that in "reality" there isn't such a thing as male or female. It is a categorization made by humans, it can be a useful one, but that doesn't make it true. 

Yes even the moon is a mental contruction, Yes even the self is mental construction. That doesn't mean that they can't be useful constructions or that we should disregard the existence of the moon. 

If you had two parents with male biology you would not be born, if you had two parents with female biology you would be born either. You need both male and female DNA for reproduction. This is just a basic observation in biology. This is observation does not just exist out of necessity. You just have to observe biology and you will find a distinction between male and female.

When two male primates have sex with each other you can observe that neither will get pregnant. When a male and female primate have sex with each other you will observe that it's always the female that gets pregnant, and not the male. This is just basic science.

Just like I can observe the moon, and observe that the moon has different characteristics than the empty space surrounding the moon. That's why we conceptualize the moon. Because the moon has defining traits that differentiates itself from empty space. Just like male and female biology have differentiated traits. The practical implication do not even matter in case of observation.