Transgender women (biological men) dominating women's sports

[Arcangelo]

@Tech36363

You didn't answer.

They know what they are doing.

I see bullshit I call it out. That's me thinking.

What do you think? Is it fair in your eyes?

[Danioover9000]

@Arcangelo

51 minutes ago, Arcangelo said:

@Tech36363 Common sense tells me it is cheating.

What does your common sense tell you?

   Common sense also tells me it's cheating.

   However, that 'common sense' was imprinted into me by my upbringing, culture, values and memes from those around me, which is also internalized in my cognitive and moral development, the staes of being and becomings I normalized, the general and specific life experiences I have and other lines of development. All these factors come together to inform very quickly what I call my common sense, and the main issue is most people are not conscious of this individually based common sense being constructed from multiple factors of the collective group one is inside and outside of.

   So, more honestly I have to say it's not that obvious to be common sense, I need more information like the genetics and body composition of the trans identified person versus the body composition and genes of either the female or male competitors, within the context of a combative sports. If the information gathered shows that a trans identified person has very comparable physique and body composition to male athletes versus female athletes, then that trans athlete should compete against men rather than women, an vice versa if the information gathered shows the reverse.

   We can also implement a democratic polling system that allows the competitors or organization, to vote for which trans identified persons be given the opportunity to compete, either the males or the females. 

[Danioover9000]

@no_name

On 3/27/2022 at 8:21 PM, no_name said:

Well obviously the situation is more complicated than that, one could come up with more elaborate/complex solutions, and it still will not be a 100% win-win.

I feel this has been a head scratcher for some time already. I think that with sports it’s kinda more obvious to me what the solution should be, but with the bathroom/change room situation it’s more complicated - although many places now, in addition to female/male bathrooms, have a “family” bathroom which is kind of like unisex.

However, I feel that we do need to come up with a solution and have discussions about this in a respectful way and not avoid the topic because it’s “touchy” in a cowardly way.

   With the sporting context I agree it's a simpler solution to that, and with the restroom context I agree it can be tricky. For example, if you proposed a solution to deter potential sexual assaults by Cis men or trans identified persons against women, in restrooms, via installing cameras, that solution could receive push back because it violates privacy of individuals, or it would be too expensive to equip every unisex restroom with cams.

[Danioover9000]

@nuwu

3 hours ago, nuwu said:

@Sri McDonald Trump Maharaj

cringe

@Bobby_2021

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 => [ 1 2 3 ] [ 4 5 6 ] [ 7 8 9 ]
problem solved!

 

[Leo Gura]

If you wanna make these sports more fair then test for height, muscle mass, testosterone levels, etc. and have categories for them.

[Carl-Richard]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

If you wanna make these sports more fair then test for height, muscle mass, testosterone levels, etc. and have categories for them.

That would be pretty boring for things like MMA. It's like watching two clones fight. The most interesting fights are between people with slightly different physiques and different strengths and weaknesses.

[Joel3102]

25 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

If you wanna make these sports more fair then test for height, muscle mass, testosterone levels, etc. and have categories for them.

Yeah but that’s not how we’ve decided to seperate groups for sports. Everyone knows that it’s not really fair, of course genetics is the most important factor for being elite.

But we’ve decided to seperate for sex for good reason, to allow a seperate class for biological females to be competitive. 

If we want to start creating different classes for height etc, that’s a seperate conversation. 

[Leo Gura]

Well, when you construct categories don't be surprised when they blow up in your face at some point.

"Male" and "female" were constructed categories which are now being deconstructed. So here we are. People are freaking out because they took it for granted that male and female were always constructions.

The outrage is a mechanism to maintain the constructions while pretending they were not constructions.

[Joel3102]

49 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Well, when you construct categories don't be surprised when they blow up in your face at some point.

"Male" and "female" were constructed categories which are now being deconstructed. So here we are. People are freaking out because they took it for granted that male and female were always constructions.

The outrage is a mechanism to maintain the constructions while pretending they were not constructions.

Yeah of course they’re constructions, but some constructions serve a pragmatic purpose. Should we just ignore the construction completely in sports and just kill sport for biological females entirely?

Pretty sure you’ve agreed with the Rogan position on trans women in sports in the past. 

[vladorion]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Well, when you construct categories don't be surprised when they blow up in your face at some point.

"Male" and "female" were constructed categories which are now being deconstructed. So here we are. People are freaking out because they took it for granted that male and female were always constructions.

The outrage is a mechanism to maintain the constructions while pretending they were not constructions.

If they're constructions then it should make no difference to you whom to have sex with, a man or a woman.

[Joel3102]

7 minutes ago, vladorion said:

If they're constructions then it should make no difference to you whom to have sex with, a man or a woman.

Just cause something is a construction, doesn’t mean it can’t have use.

The construction of gender has shown it’s limits in trans people, and broadening that construction is a good thing. But it doesn’t mean that there’s no use whatsoever for any social constructions 

[Bobby_2021]

On 3/28/2022 at 0:51 AM, no_name said:

I think that with sports it’s kinda more obvious to me what the solution should be, but with the bathroom/change room situation it’s more complicated

It's not complicated. Unsolicitedly pulling out dick infront of women was considered to be sexual harrasment. Now I don't even know if that has been deconstructed away. What's left now?

I would like to see your "obvious" solution about sports.

Edited March 29, 2022 by Bobby_2021

[Bobby_2021]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

If you wanna make these sports more fair then test for height, muscle mass, testosterone levels, etc. and have categories for them.

All of these things are higher for men(people with balls) and lower for people without it, since balls make a lot of Testosterone during the formative years and that leads to higher muscle mass, height etc.

That's why we created categories for people with balls and without it. 

If people are not even going to respect that you can forget about making things fair over subtle advantages like recent test levels, height etc.

You can deconstruct whatever you want sitting inside your room. But forfeiting the benifits of constructions is insane unless you have something else in place. Constructions are made with a specific purpose in mind.

@vladorion

"If they're constructions then it should make no difference to you whom to have sex with, a man or a woman."

That's also my point. You can deconstruct something and still enjoy the benifits of constructions. Plus the people allowing this madness haven't deconstructed anything. They are doing it for political reasons.

 

 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Bobby_2021

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, vladorion said:

If they're constructions then it should make no difference to you whom to have sex with, a man or a woman.

All differences are constructions.

[Arcangelo]

https://nypost.com/2022/03/18/parents-of-ivy-league-swimmers-write-letting-lia-thomas-swim-isnt-fair/

“Grossly unfair,” say the parents of college swimmers who have been competing against trans athlete Lia Thomas, who won the 500-yard freestyle at last weekend’s NCAA Division I Women’s Swimming and Diving Championships.

“Women deserve fairness without caveat,” the parents wrote in an open letter, “and they should not be asked to shoulder the mental health of others at their own expense. A male body cannot become a female body. A woman is not a disadvantaged man.”

Many of Thomas’s teammates at the University of Pennsylvania agree. “Biologically, Lia holds an unfair advantage over competition in the women’s category, as evidenced by her rankings that have bounced from #462 as a male to #1 as a female,” they wrote, in an earlier letter.

“No, it wasn’t fair,” agreed Caitlyn Jenner, who won the 1976 men’s Olympic decathlon before transitioning four decades later, “it’s not a fair fight.”

and

"We are furious and most everyone in our community is furious as well. Parents, coaches, swimmers, and rational, logical people know this is grossly unfair. Female swimmers have not consented to this. In fact, many of them expressly said no. What response did they receive?

 

Ivy League swimmers told not to talk to media about Lia Thomas: parents

Be quiet. A new ideology ruled. “Transwomen are women” no exceptions; the girls’ concerns: “transphobic.”

Edited March 29, 2022 by Arcangelo

[Arcangelo]

''They expressed how uncomfortable the locker rooms were with male nudity.''

Come on guys.

Let's get real.

[vladorion]

2 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

All differences are constructions.

Sure. Doesn't mean they're not real on a practical level.

Using an argument of "male/female is a construct" on a practical level, which this thread is about, doesn't work. 

Edited March 29, 2022 by vladorion

[mojsterr]

53 minutes ago, Arcangelo said:

 that have bounced from #462 as a male to #1 as a female,”
 

Damn, boi

[Joel3102]

31 minutes ago, vladorion said:

Sure. Doesn't mean they're not real on a practical level.

Using an argument of "male/female is a construct" on a practical level, which this thread is about, doesn't work. 

Exactly, confusing relative and absolute.

At the ultimate level life and death is a construct, but I’d still prefer to not blow my brains out and than do so.

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, vladorion said:

Sure. Doesn't mean they're not real on a practical level.

Using an argument of "male/female is a construct" on a practical level, which this thread is about, doesn't work. 

The point is that the construction isn't perfectly practical, because the world isn't dichotomous.