Throwing away Zen mind

[Raptorsin7]

6 hours ago, Barna said:

You're right, I'm stagnating like hell in my spiritual growth.  
But I'm not even offering help in that regard. I've offered help before on this forum with emotional stuff because I'm a pretty joyful person, so I think I can help others become more joyful as well. I think in the end it doesn't really matter how fast you reach enlightenment, what's more important is to enjoy the path, so I aim to teach joy. But joy is a personal "tool", not a spiritual one. Suffering will take you much further on your spiritual path.  

Haha yeah I have been there/am there so I can relate. I think you are using your own joy and desire to help as a way to avoid the spiritual work and break your stagnation. Like your reasons make sense and maybe helping other people become more joyful is what you're meant to do now, but I have a sense that it's an elaborate ego game to avoid spiritual work.

I would say if you can effectively bring joy to people than there's no issue, but I would be on the look out for if you think you're helping people, but people aren't getting the message or aren't benefitting from what you're saying, for whatever reason.

 

[Barna]

5 hours ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Haha yeah I have been there/am there so I can relate. I think you are using your own joy and desire to help as a way to avoid the spiritual work and break your stagnation. Like your reasons make sense and maybe helping other people become more joyful is what you're meant to do now, but I have a sense that it's an elaborate ego game to avoid spiritual work.

I'm not even trying to develop spiritually now. I don't know why people keep suggesting that I should. Is it against the forum guidelines to stagnate?  

I've been doing spiritual work since high school (I'm 29 now, early mid-life crisis period), but now I realized that it doesn't make any sense to spend 8 hours a day doing something that I'm not really passionate about (framework development), so I try to spend all my free time and energy into changing my career. I simultaneously do crypto investing to retire early so I have to spend some time learning that too. So I have no time or energy left for spiritual work.
I've been thinking about doing dream yoga because I can do that while sleeping. Thanks for reminding me, I should probably start doing that.

5 hours ago, Raptorsin7 said:

I would say if you can effectively bring joy to people than there's no issue, but I would be on the look out for if you think you're helping people, but people aren't getting the message or aren't benefitting from what you're saying, for whatever reason.

Yeah, that's totally the case. Joy is a tricky thing because it's one of the most inner states, so to get there you have to peel down most of your insanity. So I think people who talked to me had the feeling that I'm skinning them alive. I had a lot of joy in that, but they didn't.  

That's one of my issues. I have a hard time tolerating other people's insanity because I subconsciously taught myself to not tolerate my own.

[BlueOak]

Also please reflect that if you can help people get into joyful states then that is a huge gift to give, never forget that. Its massive, it ripples across that person's entire life and everything they are going to experience.

If you can do dream yoga while sleeping. Maybe its time to help people while sleeping too? When asked and you feel like it. Maybe work on a skill you've been wanting to learn (though i've never consciously done this, unconsciously I do it all the time seeing if I can exist in that state)

I don't want to expand too much. But only do that for others when asked/accepted or sought out. And only in joyful states. Everything is a creation of your mind. 

All the best.

[VeganAwake]

@Barna It seems like most people just want an outlet for someone to listen to them.

We keep things bottled up because we are afraid of being judged. They want a judgment free outlet.

Most people aren't really interested in lifestyle changes because that feels difficult and threatening to their self-identity. (Which it can be)

A paraplegic therapist in california once told me sometimes the best thing to do is just listen and then if it feels like someone is having real difficulties in a certain area simply ask them "Would you like me to try and help you with this".

Because that way you're empowering them to make the decision and they don't feel like anything is being pushed on them.

Anyways it's all very interesting, thanks for the video share also.

❤ 

 

[Barna]

3 hours ago, BlueOak said:

Also please reflect that if you can help people get into joyful states then that is a huge gift to give, never forget that. Its massive, it ripples across that person's entire life and everything they are going to experience.

If you can do dream yoga while sleeping. Maybe its time to help people while sleeping too? When asked and you feel like it. Maybe work on a skill you've been wanting to learn (though i've never consciously done this, unconsciously I do it all the time seeing if I can exist in that state)

I don't want to expand too much. But only do that for others when asked/accepted or sought out. And only in joyful states. Everything is a creation of your mind. 

All the best.

Thanks, I'll probably post about it when I have any success in it.

[Barna]

1 hour ago, VeganAwake said:

@Barna It seems like most people just want an outlet for someone to listen to them.

We keep things bottled up because we are afraid of being judged. They want a judgment free outlet.

Most people aren't really interested in lifestyle changes because that feels difficult and threatening to their self-identity. (Which it can be)

A paraplegic therapist in california once told me sometimes the best thing to do is just listen and then if it feels like someone is having real difficulties in a certain area simply ask them "Would you like me to try and help you with this".

Because that way you're empowering them to make the decision and they don't feel like anything is being pushed on them.

Anyways it's all very interesting, thanks for the video share also.

❤ 

 

If you have the possibility to help someone to improve their motivations, don't you have the responsibility to do so? Isn't that the most loving thing that you can do for a friend who is stuck in their perspective? 
Because the other option would be that I don't spend time with them anymore, and this doesn't feel like the more loving choice.

[VeganAwake]

13 hours ago, Barna said:

If you have the possibility to help someone to improve their motivations, don't you have the responsibility to do so? Isn't that the most loving thing that you can do for a friend who is stuck in their perspective? 
Because the other option would be that I don't spend time with them anymore, and this doesn't feel like the more loving choice.

I get what your saying.

Here it's recognized that responsibilities are just concepts within the dream story where meaning, purpose & value feel real and important.

Here, It just doesn't feel like love has anything to do with helping people

It feels more instinctual than anything else.

 

 

 

 

[Barna]

12 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

I get what your saying.

Here it's recognized that responsibilities are just concepts within the dream story where meaning, purpose & value feel real and important.

Here, It just doesn't feel like love has anything to do with helping people

It feels more instinctual than anything else.

Living by instinct is the ultimate comfort zone. You can do all kinds of mistakes all day and you can always say "Mistake is a concept, I was just following my instincts". This feels like being stuck on the instinctual level. 

[VeganAwake]

8 hours ago, Barna said:

Living by instinct is the ultimate comfort zone.

That's true because it's doing prior to conditioned thought arising. Prior to having to psychoanalyze every action taken or not taken.... freedom from that judgment process.

You can do all kinds of mistakes all day and you can always say "Mistake is a concept, I was just following my instincts".

This makes no sense because something that seems to be a mistake initially can end up being the best decision of your life.... so in that sense there's never a knowing whether something would be considered a so-called mistake or not.

This feels like being stuck on the instinctual level.

There's no one actually here that's stuck and no one actually there making that judgment....it's just conditioned thinking being identified with as MY thoughts. 

But I totally get it ....the sense of self lives in a world of rights and wrongs.

It has to tread carefully in order not to make any big mistakes.

❤ 

 

[Barna]

1 hour ago, VeganAwake said:

This makes no sense because something that seems to be a mistake initially can end up being the best decision of your life.... so in that sense there's never a knowing whether something would be considered a so-called mistake or not.

I'm not talking about mistakes in a selfish sense. I mean mistakes that have effects on other people. Like a badly worded response that hurts someone. Isn't that instinctual? 

[VeganAwake]

1 hour ago, Barna said:

I'm not talking about mistakes in a selfish sense.

I wasn't either, it swings all ways.

For example Chris Rock getting slapped by Will Smith might appear to have been the WRONG action taken by Will at the time, but maybe if he hadn't done that, Wills' wife's drunken brother-in-law would have stabbed Chris at a later date for the years of disrespect. 

Point being, no one Really knows whether it was a right or wrong move by Will.

Some people need to be criticized and or slapped sometimes.

I mean mistakes that have effects on other people. Like a badly worded response that hurts someone. Isn't that instinctual? 

Well whether it's instinctual or a triggered conditioned response matters not.

Again sometimes people need their feelings hurt.

Maybe it's exactly what the doctor ordered.... no one really knows!

❤ 

 

[Barna]

11 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

Well whether it's instinctual or a triggered conditioned response matters not.

 

Again sometimes people need their feelings hurt.

 

Maybe it's exactly what the doctor ordered.... no one really knows!

So let's say that when I get irritated, I'm mean to people. What kind of an advice would you give me if I asked you?

[VeganAwake]

9 hours ago, Barna said:

So let's say that when I get irritated, I'm mean to people. What kind of an advice would you give me if I asked you?

I would tell you first and foremost that there's nothing right or wrong with getting irritated and being mean. Recognizing that clearly can diminish guilt or suffering sometimes but not always.

There's just not a one method fits all approach to it.

You could try to start a new habit of recognizing early the feelings of irritation when they start to arise and do breathing exercises.

Make up an excuse that you have a doctor's appointment that you forgot about when you start feeling irritated during a conversation.

Pretend you got a phone call.

Don't talk to morons.

Don't speak or give advice when you feel irritated and mad.

Keep a note in your pocket that you pull out when you feel irritated that says: "Calm the fuk down barna, it's not that serious".

Whatever method you choose try to make it creative and fun if possible.

❤ 

 

 

 

[Barna]

14 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

I would tell you first and foremost that there's nothing right or wrong with getting irritated and being mean. Recognizing that clearly can diminish guilt or suffering sometimes but not always.

There's just not a one method fits all approach to it.

You could try to start a new habit of recognizing early the feelings of irritation when they start to arise and do breathing exercises.

Make up an excuse that you have a doctor's appointment that you forgot about when you start feeling irritated during a conversation.

Pretend you got a phone call.

Don't talk to morons.

Don't speak or give advice when you feel irritated and mad.

Keep a note in your pocket that you pull out when you feel irritated that says: "Calm the fuk down barna, it's not that serious".

Whatever method you choose try to make it creative and fun if possible.

❤ 

Exactly, that's the kind of advice that I would give people too (except for the lying to others part).

See, this is called taking responsibility for our mental state and its effect on others. Maybe you don't call it "responsibility" because that's too much of an egoistic term for you. But in the end, we do the same thing, we just have a different vocabulary to describe it.

[VeganAwake]

2 hours ago, Barna said:

But in the end, we do the same thing, we just have a different vocabulary to describe it.

Yep, there is no escaping the appearance of having responsibilities within conditioned society, and there are plenty of consequences for not upholding them.

 

[Barna]

7 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

Yep, there is no escaping the appearance of having responsibilities within conditioned society, and there are plenty of consequences for not upholding them.

For me, responsibility is not about the consequences. Responsibility comes from love. Responsibility is the ability to respond. And I choose to respond in the most loving way that I'm able to. That's what responsibility means for me. 

[VeganAwake]

5 hours ago, Barna said:

For me, responsibility is not about the consequences. Responsibility comes from love. Responsibility is the ability to respond. And I choose to respond in the most loving way that I'm able to. That's what responsibility means for me. 

Interesting...sounds like spiritual bondage.

I remember feeling like I needed to uphold this big spiritual persona as a happy and always calm spiritual dude.

The worst was the guilt, like if I forgot to do something or said something out of line with my spiritual beliefs I would feel so guilty and unspiritual afterwards.

What a ride!

❤ 

[Barna]

3 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

Interesting...sounds like spiritual bondage.

I remember feeling like I needed to uphold this big spiritual persona as a happy and always calm spiritual dude.

The worst was the guilt, like if I forgot to do something or said something out of line with my spiritual beliefs I would feel so guilty and unspiritual afterwards.

What a ride!

❤ 

 Fortunately it's not like that for me at all. I don't do anything just for the looks of it. It's just that every time I make a choice, I try to make the most loving choice considering the situation as a whole. Sometimes this choice seems selfless because it's the most loving thing that I can do for others. Sometimes it seems selfish because it's the most loving thing that I can do to myself. It always depends on how I can add the most value to the whole situation.

I guess you just make choices instinctively. That doesn't work for me because in my perspective instinct is just a feeling, and I never know if that feeling comes from my ego or from my soul. 

 

[VeganAwake]

On 4/2/2022 at 5:45 PM, Barna said:

 Fortunately it's not like that for me at all. I don't do anything just for the looks of it. It's just that every time I make a choice, I try to make the most loving choice considering the situation as a whole. Sometimes this choice seems selfless because it's the most loving thing that I can do for others. Sometimes it seems selfish because it's the most loving thing that I can do to myself. It always depends on how I can add the most value to the whole situation.

I guess you just make choices instinctively. That doesn't work for me because in my perspective instinct is just a feeling, and I never know if that feeling comes from my ego or from my soul. 

 

I know what you mean.

Yes you have to take care of your mental and physical well being so you can continue helping others.

It that sense everything is a win win situation.

❤ 

 

 

[Barna]

25 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

I know what you mean.

Yes you have to take care of your mental and physical well being so you can continue helping others.

It that sense everything is a win win situation.

❤ 

Of course, but helping others is also not a mission in which I seek fulfillment. There is no fulfillment in the future that's more fulfilling than the always present now moment.

It's simply a choice that I'm making. Because sure, I could choose to lay on the couch all day.
But is that the most loving thing that I can do for others? Probably not.
And is it the most loving thing that I can do for myself? Well, laying on the couch is the comfort zone. There's nothing wrong with being in the comfort zone from time to time, but habitual comfort zone seeking is unhealthy in the long run. So laying on the couch is not the most loving thing that I can do for myself either. 

And I guess you do the same kind of choices instinctively. But I like trying to understand how my internal decision-making mechanism works because if I bring light into it then I can resolve the shadows there.