Throwing away Zen mind

[Barna]

1 hour ago, Zeroguy said:

@Barna Only you can awaken and only you can transform.

I know that I cannot transform other people, but leaving them behind is not an option for me.

Life is based on infinitely interconnected service between one another. The organs in your body wouldn't function if the cells didn't serve each other and the organ as a whole. Your body would die if the organs didn't serve each other and the body as a whole. And so on...

Living only for myself would feel like being cancer. 

Edited March 26, 2022 by Barna

[Raptorsin7]

@Barna Your motivation to help people may not be what you think it is. Sometimes there are shadow motivations that arise from our own impurity. There's egoic healing and true healing, it's worth looking into it so you don't fall into the trap of "helping" prematurely 

[Barna]

1 hour ago, Raptorsin7 said:

@Barna Your motivation to help people may not be what you think it is. Sometimes there are shadow motivations that arise from our own impurity. There's egoic healing and true healing, it's worth looking into it so you don't fall into the trap of "helping" prematurely 

I help others because I want to feel good about myself. So I'm doing it for purely selfish reasons. But from this perspective, there are no selfless activities, everything comes from selfishness in the end, and I guess that's okay.

Do I feel superior while helping others? Yes, I do. And I guess that's obvious if you read my posts.  
But this feeling of superiority happens in many areas of my life, I guess it's an unhealthy overcompensation mechanism from my personality structure for feeling generally inferior in the past. I know about this, but I don't think it's the main reason why I want to help others.

What else did you notice about my motivations? Maybe you're seeing something about me that I don't.

[Razard86]

On 3/25/2022 at 10:22 AM, VeganAwake said:

Definitely toss out the baby with the bathwater, smash the bathtub and burn the house down.

Only emptiness can see clear!

For the ego there's always something else that needs to occur.

Ego can't fathom that reality is already perfection and complete freedom for no one. Because of course that would be its demise!

? ❤ 

 

Saying to toss out the bathwater is itself EGO. I keep seeing people make this mistake. The best way to recognize the ego is that the ego is addicted with activity, and the ego demonizes and angelifies.

So one of the tricks the ego will do is say: ONLY EMPTINESS IS CLEAR!! Destroy the ego!!! 

God is unconditional love so for God the ego is neither bad nor good in fact the ego is absolute love since everything God creates is a representation of absolute love. God created the ego so God could forget it was God and enjoy the dream.

To ego, anything that is a barrier to what it desires is BAD. So if you desire awakening then the ego is barrier and is bad. For many....the last barrier to reaching FULL GOD realization will be to love their ego.

[VeganAwake]

3 hours ago, Razard86 said:

Saying to toss out the bathwater is itself EGO.

It was being used as a metaphor for recognizing all the conditioned beliefs and concepts the sense of self or ego is typically entangled in.

I keep seeing people make this mistake.

Mistakes aren't even real, they only seem to occur within the ego's dream story of meaning, purpose and value.

How could there be a real mistake when there isn't a real goal to attain or correct path to walk?

The best way to recognize the ego is that the ego is addicted with activity, and the ego demonizes and angelifies.

I get what you're saying but there isn't a real "best way" of anything.... thats just more conditioned ego dream stories. 

Ego is the entire illusory experience of separation, which yes can include demonizing and angelifying.

Basically ego = illusory identification, unsatisfaction and guilt.

So one of the tricks the ego will do is say: ONLY EMPTINESS IS CLEAR!! Destroy the ego!!! 

Again that's just a simple misunderstanding of the metaphor and the way it was being used.

And any advising to destroy the ego would also be a misunderstanding because it's not a real something that could be destroyed in the first place.... it's an illusory identification as this or that.

God is unconditional love so for God the ego is neither bad nor good in fact the ego is absolute love since everything God creates is a representation of absolute love. God created the ego so God could forget it was God and enjoy the dream.

Wow what a stretch of a story.

Well that's what's being experienced there it's whole, complete and perfect.

Again the ego isn't real. So it's like saying Santa and the Easter bunny are unconditional love. Ok sure why not.

To ego, anything that is a barrier to what it desires is BAD. So if you desire awakening then the ego is barrier and is bad. For many....the last barrier to reaching FULL GOD realization will be to love their ego.

And again the ego isn't real so that's like saying you unconditionally love your imaginary friend Tony from first grade.  

Sounds really spiritual & sweet but it's just a silly misunderstanding.

❤ 

 

 

[OceanRiver]

@Barna Someone's has to do the thinking around this place otherwise we we're just waiting to die.

[VeganAwake]

7 hours ago, Barna said:

I guess it's an unhealthy overcompensation mechanism from my personality structure for feeling generally inferior in the past.

❤ 

Everything you said on all your comments sounds 100% completely normal. 

Take a real close look at this personality structure called ME.

What is it?

Break it all the way down.

Is there anything actually there?

 

 

 

[Razard86]

2 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

Saying to toss out the bathwater is itself EGO.

It was being used as a metaphor for recognizing all the conditioned beliefs and concepts the sense of self or ego is typically entangled in.

I keep seeing people make this mistake.

Mistakes aren't even real, they only seem to occur within the ego's dream story of meaning, purpose and value.

How could there be a real mistake when there isn't a real goal to attain or correct path to walk?

The best way to recognize the ego is that the ego is addicted with activity, and the ego demonizes and angelifies.

I get what you're saying but there isn't a real "best way" of anything.... thats just more conditioned ego dream stories. 

Ego is the entire illusory experience of separation, which yes can include demonizing and angelifying.

Basically ego = illusory identification, unsatisfaction and guilt.

So one of the tricks the ego will do is say: ONLY EMPTINESS IS CLEAR!! Destroy the ego!!! 

Again that's just a simple misunderstanding of the metaphor and the way it was being used.

And any advising to destroy the ego would also be a misunderstanding because it's not a real something that could be destroyed in the first place.... it's an illusory identification as this or that.

God is unconditional love so for God the ego is neither bad nor good in fact the ego is absolute love since everything God creates is a representation of absolute love. God created the ego so God could forget it was God and enjoy the dream.

Wow what a stretch of a story.

Well that's what's being experienced there it's whole, complete and perfect.

Again the ego isn't real. So it's like saying Santa and the Easter bunny are unconditional love. Ok sure why not.

To ego, anything that is a barrier to what it desires is BAD. So if you desire awakening then the ego is barrier and is bad. For many....the last barrier to reaching FULL GOD realization will be to love their ego.

And again the ego isn't real so that's like saying you unconditionally love your imaginary friend Tony from first grade.  

Sounds really spiritual & sweet but it's just a silly misunderstanding.

❤ 

 

Sigh.....I really do not like these spirituality games you are playing. But since you want to play...play we shall.

1. You aren't real, so even you correcting me or claiming I'm misunderstanding doesn't exist.

2. God is creating this dream, whatever God creates DOES exist since it is made up of God. We only say it doesn't exist because it is God's dream. God creates through imagination so we are all in the dream. 

3. Everything you just did was a waste of time since in your own words there are no goals, and its all imaginary anyway. You also said there was no right way yet you took the time to correct me.

4. Since infinity is a paradox, everything is a paradox and is both meaningful and meaningless.

5. We could go on and on in this manner which is why I avoid these spirituality games some of yall play. I almost think its TROLLING at this point but if you must.....

[VeganAwake]

6 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

Sigh.....I really do not like these spirituality games you are playing. But since you want to play...play we shall.

1. You aren't real, so even you correcting me or claiming I'm misunderstanding doesn't exist.

2. God is creating this dream, whatever God creates DOES exist since it is made up of God. We only say it doesn't exist because it is God's dream. God creates through imagination so we are all in the dream. 

3. Everything you just did was a waste of time since in your own words there are no goals, and its all imaginary anyway. You also said there was no right way yet you took the time to correct me.

4. Since infinity is a paradox, everything is a paradox and is both meaningful and meaningless.

5. We could go on and on in this manner which is why I avoid these spirituality games some of yall play. I almost think its TROLLING at this point but if you must.....

Then that's what's being experienced there, it's complete and perfect ? 

The communication wasn't for or against anyone rather it attempts to reveal the unreality of that which proclaims itself to be God. 

❤ 

 

 

[Barna]

 

13 hours ago, Razard86 said:

Saying to toss out the bathwater is itself EGO. I keep seeing people make this mistake. The best way to recognize the ego is that the ego is addicted with activity, and the ego demonizes and angelifies.

So one of the tricks the ego will do is say: ONLY EMPTINESS IS CLEAR!! Destroy the ego!!! 

God is unconditional love so for God the ego is neither bad nor good in fact the ego is absolute love since everything God creates is a representation of absolute love. God created the ego so God could forget it was God and enjoy the dream.

To ego, anything that is a barrier to what it desires is BAD. So if you desire awakening then the ego is barrier and is bad. For many....the last barrier to reaching FULL GOD realization will be to love their ego.

I totally agree

[Barna]

7 hours ago, OceanRiver said:

@Barna Someone's has to do the thinking around this place otherwise we we're just waiting to die.

I'm not against thinking, as I mentioned before:

Quote

I don't demonize the mind. I'm a developer, I love my mind, it works hard to earn my salary

But Zen mind is the opposite of thinking, so throwing it away means starting to think again

[Barna]

7 hours ago, VeganAwake said:

❤ 

Everything you said on all your comments sounds 100% completely normal. 

Take a real close look at this personality structure called ME.

What is it?

Break it all the way down.

Is there anything actually there?

I know that the person doesn't exist. But realizing this is not the end, the way we express ourselves still needs to develop to match our realization. 

For example, you can't keep a normal conversation without correcting other people's spiritual grammar. And this is not because your lack of realization, it's rather because the way you express yourself still has room to evolve. 

This skill of expressing oneself is called personality structure. Please stop saying that this concept is an illusion just because it has the word personality in its name. 

[mp22]

On 25/03/2022 at 3:26 PM, Barna said:

I don't demonize the mind. I'm a developer, I love my mind, it works hard to earn my salary

And I don't have a Zen master, I've found this quote on Twitter ?

What I meant, is that all the spiritual perspective is useless in the long run if you don't spend your time/energy into helping others

and by others, you mean the pure products of your imagination. According to the ideology of this site you are basically helping video game characters.

Sorry could not resist throwing a barb out there :-)

[Barna]

36 minutes ago, mp22 said:

and by others, you mean the pure products of your imagination. According to the ideology of this site you are basically helping video game characters.

Sorry could not resist throwing a barb out there :-)

That's alright because that's the kind of game I prefer playing. I love helping video game characters

[VeganAwake]

7 hours ago, Barna said:

I know that the person doesn't exist. But realizing this is not the end, the way we express ourselves still needs to develop to match our realization. 

For example, you can't keep a normal conversation without correcting other people's spiritual grammar. And this is not because your lack of realization, it's rather because the way you express yourself still has room to evolve. 

This skill of expressing oneself is called personality structure. Please stop saying that this concept is an illusion just because it has the word personality in its name. 

Well you seem very mature and open minded and I am usually very attracted to those qualities.

In a sense it CAN become difficult to empathize and relate back to the very needy self-identity that used to be identified with here as the ME character.

And awakening isn't even necessarily the end of these feeling's arising altogether. It's a clear recognition that there never was actually a real person in the body experiencing these feelings or emotions....it's just raw feeling!

So it's not like a denial/detachment of the feelings of wanting to help humanity and evolve the so-called personality structure, rather its a disentangling from the identification AS an individual that owns or experiences them.

There can obviously be all kinds of apparent benefits from improved communication skills within conditioned society. Namely like you said, a better sense of connectedness and maybe even a job with better salary and

This communication is NOT saying there are any should or shouldn't do's in ANY way at all!! By all means do do do to your heart's content.

Just don't be surprised when it's recognized that this energy never becomes satisfied.... and not only does it never become satisfied but it will actually continue to "up the ante" and increase the feelings of guilt and lack.

This sense of doership is often referred to as the spiritual ego, and let me tell you it's a beast because it now hides like a wolf in sheep's clothing.

What to do you might ask?

There's nothing to do because it's not real.

It's just sometimes recognized by no one to be completely unreal.

And it's freedom or enlightenment which was actually always the case but just not recognized.

❤ 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Raptorsin7]

On 3/26/2022 at 8:24 AM, Barna said:

I help others because I want to feel good about myself. So I'm doing it for purely selfish reasons. But from this perspective, there are no selfless activities, everything comes from selfishness in the end, and I guess that's okay.

Do I feel superior while helping others? Yes, I do. And I guess that's obvious if you read my posts.  
But this feeling of superiority happens in many areas of my life, I guess it's an unhealthy overcompensation mechanism from my personality structure for feeling generally inferior in the past. I know about this, but I don't think it's the main reason why I want to help others.

What else did you notice about my motivations? Maybe you're seeing something about me that I don't.

I think sometimes there's a point on the path where we believe we have a lot to share but our own practice may stall, and so we look to help and share with other people. I'm not saying you don't have anything to offer, but I think it's a subtle trap where you get caught up in a role of teacher or helper, and it lets you avoid your own stagnation.

I think when it's time to help and share, it happens spontaneously as a part of the flow of life. I think being a teacher, or even people who are teachers but reject the teacher label, is an unnatural out flow, and those people would be better off sinking into their own practice.

If you aren't completely satisfied with your spiritual growth then I would say pursue that more intensely, rather than trying to teach and help other people.

[Barna]

14 hours ago, Raptorsin7 said:

I think sometimes there's a point on the path where we believe we have a lot to share but our own practice may stall, and so we look to help and share with other people. I'm not saying you don't have anything to offer, but I think it's a subtle trap where you get caught up in a role of teacher or helper, and it lets you avoid your own stagnation.

I think when it's time to help and share, it happens spontaneously as a part of the flow of life. I think being a teacher, or even people who are teachers but reject the teacher label, is an unnatural out flow, and those people would be better off sinking into their own practice.

If you aren't completely satisfied with your spiritual growth then I would say pursue that more intensely, rather than trying to teach and help other people.

You're right, I'm stagnating like hell in my spiritual growth.  
But I'm not even offering help in that regard. I've offered help before on this forum with emotional stuff because I'm a pretty joyful person, so I think I can help others become more joyful as well. I think in the end it doesn't really matter how fast you reach enlightenment, what's more important is to enjoy the path, so I aim to teach joy. But joy is a personal "tool", not a spiritual one. Suffering will take you much further on your spiritual path.  

[BlueOak]

If you are a joyful person that is nice. Its a good place to start from and go back to. Like starting in a field on a sunny day, as opposed to a highway with oncoming traffic. 

Joy is a very spiritual tool, its one of the big three. Gratitude, Joy and Love. If you can put yourself in these states well... I don't want to bias it more than that for you. But practice them toward yourself/others - same thing. You've probably seen some of the benefits already and perhaps are not even aware of it.

Energetic activations bring things to you quicker.
Spiritual activations make things clearer or more evident.

Again I don't want to bias it more than that, because it leaves room for anything.

Gratitude. For this thread I needed it today its been tough.
All the best.

[Barna]

24 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

If you are a joyful person that is nice. Its a good place to start from and go back to. Like starting in a field on a sunny day, as opposed to a highway with oncoming traffic. 

Joy is a very spiritual tool, its one of the big three. Gratitude, Joy and Love. If you can put yourself in these states well... I don't want to bias it more than that for you. But practice them toward yourself/others - same thing. You've probably seen some of the benefits already and perhaps are not even aware of it.

Energetic activations bring things to you quicker.
Spiritual activations make things clearer or more evident.

Again I don't want to bias it more than that, because it leaves room for anything.

Gratitude. For this thread I needed it today its been tough.
All the best.

Cool, then I'm quite spiritual today ?‍♂️

"Gratitude, JoY and Love", I like this trinity, we can abbreviate this and call it GaYLv from now on.

[Barna]

@VeganAwake here's a common ground for us: 

 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Barna