World Is A Simulation

[Nahm]

Can you help me understand how you resolve the world reality being a simulation, and the butterfly effect? Or do you not resolve things, like, just skip it?

Edited March 12, 2017 by Nahm

[PureExp]

@Nahm Let me know the contradictions or issues that need to be resolved.

[Nahm]

@PureExp The observable determinism from atomic up, and underlying quantum state of superposition and uncertainty that is the fabric of all  the observable matter, knowing that yourself as an observer are a part of the loop. 

Or that given, in the end, it is all mind, why can't you use your mind to make a choice, let alone make the notorious 'instant flying car"? Even assuming that another observer would perceive you as not having made any choice and doing what was inevitable. Your mind is, as everything is, made of the underlying superposition, which is everything in a state of everything.

String theory presupposed that space time is a back drop thus gravitational waves, but relativity incorporates space time and predicted gravitational waves. So is string theory a worthwhile pursuit or a false direction?

Knowing that you are the everything, the oneness, and that the oneness can't make a simple decision? Or another way of saying it, how did something come from everything if everything can't produce anything?

Thanks for talking to me about this stuff. I acknowledge most people get annoyed with it. Also, your website is fantastic. I've been perusing and love it!

Also, seperate question, got anything on the laws? Where did they come from? Have you found meaning or purpose for the laws personally?

 

[PureExp]

@Nahm Great questions, not annoying at all. I'll be very brief because all details are on my blog, if needed. All basics are there, and when you realize them these small questions get answered easily.

1 hour ago, Nahm said:

The observable determinism from atomic up, and underlying quantum state of superposition and uncertainty that is the fabric of all  the observable matter, knowing that yourself as an observer are a part of the loop. 

Determinism is a direct consequence of statistics. Notice that determinism applies only to "large" systems, where there are trillions of atoms. Individual atoms and particle behave quantum mechanically and are not predictable but the overall properties are statistical average and are deterministic.  Observer is nothing but consciousness and all physics is not "done" by consciousness, it happens "in" consciousness. So the QM and large scale world both are happening in you, not being produced by you. Difference to be noted. Contemplate that.

1 hour ago, Nahm said:

Or that given, in the end, it is all mind, why can't you use your mind to make a choice, let alone make the notorious 'instant flying car"? Even assuming that another observer would perceive you as not having made any choice and doing what was inevitable. Your mind is, as everything is, made of the underlying superposition, which is everything in a state of everything.

Note that mind is a structure evolved out of organizing processes, and it is very limited. It is "happening" it is not "doing" something here, it cannot do anything at all. Even the desire of conjuring up a flying car is only an event which is not "willed" by the mind. Human minds cannot even choose. All choices are hard wired. There is no agency there that can choose. Choice happens, it is not done by anyone. Why? because there is no one.

1 hour ago, Nahm said:

String theory presupposed that space time is a back drop thus gravitational waves, but relativity incorporates space time and predicted gravitational waves. So is string theory a worthwhile pursuit or a false direction?

All theories are useful to some extent, but limited fundamentally speaking. Theory is not knowledge. Its a way of understanding or describing phenomena. Can we pursue a theory? Of course yes, but keeping the above in mind, lets see where it takes us.

1 hour ago, Nahm said:

Knowing that you are the everything, the oneness, and that the oneness can't make a simple decision? Or another way of saying it, how did something come from everything if everything can't produce anything?

You are projecting the human notion of "decision making" on to oneness. And then you are asking why can it not be done. So all you need to do to get an answer is realize that human concepts need not apply at non-dual level. Even we, humans, do not make any decisions. See that directly.

The other question is on border of unknowable. Everything came out of change happening in nothing. The nothing here is consciousness, it is empty. So how can anything come out of it at all? Minds cannot grasp this. The only good answer I found is this - the manifestation or creation is an illusion, its not really there, and since its not there, it was not "produced" and is not producing anything. However, the question of why there is this illusion remains, which is not knowable(at least for me). See this article for more - Creating the Experience.

1 hour ago, Nahm said:

Also, seperate question, got anything on the laws? Where did they come from? Have you found meaning or purpose for the laws personally?

The self organizing process can create algorithmic structures (how? check above link). The laws are just algorithms that dictate how an event happens. And that's how its meaningful to call physical universe as a simulation, because a simulation is just a collection of algorithms.

"Purpose" is a word we humans use to assign an end goal to things. So the "purpose" of a knife is to cut stuff. Purpose of a car is to travel fast etc. For things that are of no everyday use, the word loses its meaning. So for example, there is no purpose of a tall mountain at a particular place, or no purpose for trillions of stars and planets. There is no purpose or meaning of a human life, and all existence is essentially purposeless or meaningless from the limited tiny perspective of humans. So drop that projection too, its not applicable to big stuff which is beyond our comprehension. Some people find it dark and depressing. For them I recommend you assign a purpose of your liking to stuff of all kinds and continue... wouldn't make an iota of difference. 

[Nahm]

14 hours ago, PureExp said:

Determinism is a direct consequence of statistics. Notice that determinism applies only to "large" systems, where there are trillions of atoms. Individual atoms and particle behave quantum mechanically and are not predictable but the overall properties are statistical average and are deterministic.  Observer is nothing but consciousness and all physics is not "done" by consciousness, it happens "in" consciousness. So the QM and large scale world both are happening in you, not being produced by you. Difference to be noted. Contemplate that.

A statistical average of anything can be determined.  I don't see where the rest is applicable. What is it that prevents you from making a choice? A belief that determined systems produce only determined outcomes...? 

 

14 hours ago, PureExp said:

You are projecting the human notion of "decision making" on to oneness. And then you are asking why can it not be done. So all you need to do to get an answer is realize that human concepts need not apply at non-dual level. Even we, humans, do not make any decisions. See that directly.

The other question is on border of unknowable. Everything came out of change happening in nothing. The nothing here is consciousness, it is empty. So how can anything come out of it at all? Minds cannot grasp this. The only good answer I found is this - the manifestation or creation is an illusion, its not really there, and since its not there, it was not "produced" and is not producing anything. However, the question of why there is this illusion remains, which is not knowable(at least for me). See this article for more - Creating the Experience.

14 hours ago, PureExp said:

Note that mind is a structure evolved out of organizing processes, and it is very limited. It is "happening" it is not "doing" something here, it cannot do anything at all. Even the desire of conjuring up a flying car is only an event which is not "willed" by the mind. Human minds cannot even choose. All choices are hard wired. There is no agency there that can choose. Choice happens, it is not done by anyone. Why? because there is no one.

Larger scale systems combine and produce random unpredictable results. If you're the observer and physics is happening in consciousness, what is it that prevents us from making choices or changing anything?  Why then don't we have any influence or choice (free will)?  Are you saying the brain is a passive causal actor of this and the mind does not interact with the brain?  No one or no One? Behind everything, do you hold that there is nothing, or everything, or that both are one in the same? It seems to me that what you refer to as unknowable is that all of our experience comes from nothing, as I understand it, all of our experience comes from everything and is something specific collapsed. Also, a choice can not just 'happen', even simply by definition of the word choice. . There is no one because everyone is the One, is very different from 'there is nothing'. Reduction to 'Nothing' is easy and requires no steps, but doesn't actually resolve anything. 

 

14 hours ago, PureExp said:

All theories are useful to some extent, but limited fundamentally speaking. 

 

Yes, it is a way of understanding. The more we learn the more we understand. Please don't confuse understanding and being. Also, you're missing the nature of the loop / expansion. 

14 hours ago, PureExp said:

You are projecting the human notion of "decision making" on to oneness. And then you are asking why can it not be done. So all you need to do to get an answer is realize that human concepts need not apply at non-dual level. Even we, humans, do not make any decisions. See that directly.

The other question is on border of unknowable. Everything came out of change happening in nothing. The nothing here is consciousness, it is empty. So how can anything come out of it at all? Minds cannot grasp this. The only good answer I found is this - the manifestation or creation is an illusion, its not really there, and since its not there, it was not "produced" and is not producing anything. However, the question of why there is this illusion remains, which is not knowable(at least for me). See this article for more - Creating the Experience.

I'm not projecting, I am the Oneness. Decision making, like everything, is of the Oneness, is not seperate. I'm not asking why it can't be done, I'm asking you why you can't do it. You're picking and switching from the oneness perspective to the human perspective and missing that you are the whole thing. 

How can anything come from  nothing - because it's not nothing, it's everything. The observation is specific. We can't observe it all at the same time because we are the all, not collapsed yet to be observed. You're making a reference to unknowable but you previously said ALL knowledge falls at your feet. Fundamental to everything you're saying, is that you are not nothing, you are everything.

14 hours ago, PureExp said:

  7 hours ago, Nahm said:

String theory presupposed that space time is a back drop thus gravitational waves, but relativity incorporates space time and predicted gravitational waves. 

How do you reconcile these theories? 

 

Purpose i assigned by you. You are the chooser This is he uncertainty principle. If you have not yet made a choice, there is no certainty. I hope this helps you to choose purpose in your life. Thank you again for the convo! Much appreciated!

[PureExp]

@Nahm Well, that's all I know if its useful very good, anyhow everyone must know from their own experiences.

I see that your theme is free will vs determinism. Its an age old debate. The answers are different depending on where you stand. It depends on how deeply you know yourself (consciousness) and how much introspection you do on such matters.

It looks like you have firm beliefs about QM/SR/GR and other theories. And you try to mix them with experience. It may or may not work. At most you will get paradoxes. Just remember that theories will take you no where, only direct experience can. Drop all beliefs, start clean.

My direct experience tells me that the "choice" or "will" is an illusion. The event happens, a person or doer is created on the fly and the event is tagged as a "choice" of that person. Who is doing it? Obviously no one. But there is not nothingness, as you say, it must come from somewhere. Here you must see directly. All events happen, they come from nowhere and go nowhere. There is no source, not anything that can be known. Mind only knows that which is already organized, anything outside of that is unknowable. You can imagine a big doer outside there, an even bigger doer even more outside of outside and so on, but it'd be just fantasy - unknowable.

1 hour ago, Nahm said:

You're making a reference to unknowable but you previously said ALL knowledge falls at your feet.

Ah, all knowledge refers to known or knowable. Obviously unknowable cannot be knowledge. So when I say it all falls on your feet, i do not mean even the unknowable gets known. Its not possible, its by definition.

Edited March 13, 2017 by PureExp

[Loreena]

17 minutes ago, PureExp said:

.

Ah, all knowledge refers to known or knowable. Obviously unknowable cannot be knowledge. So when I say it all falls on your feet, i do not mean even the unknowable gets known. Its not possible, its by definition.

precise. true

[Nahm]

@PureExp Thank you!!!!

[jse]

5 hours ago, PureExp said:

Ah, all knowledge refers to known or knowable. Obviously unknowable cannot be knowledge. So when I say it all falls on your feet, i do not mean even the unknowable gets known. Its not possible, its by definition.

In an infinite existence where nothing can be proven impossible, nothing can be determined to be unknowable.  The unknown  is not the same as the "unknowable" .

 

[PureExp]

@Nahm You will find that I'm not the only one who thinks the concepts free will and determinism are just concepts. It is known since thousands of years. Somehow it never reached west. Here are two links that explain it better than I did. (probably you will find much better articles/books).

https://yogainternational.com/article/view/the-paradox-of-free-will

http://www.advaita-vision.org/some-thoughts-and-questions-on-free-will/

Of course, do not accept them uncritically. Accept only your own experience.

[PureExp]

2 hours ago, jse said:

The unknown  is not the same as the "unknowable" .

No its not same. I don't know what are you trying to say here.

2 hours ago, jse said:

In an infinite existence

In an infinite existence all conclusions about everything will be invalid.

That is as good as having no knowledge ! (what you know today for sure can become something else because there are infinite possibilities. For example your experience of your dog can change into a cat and you will not know what it really is....).

So everything is unknowable in an infinite existence. Secondly, there will be an infinite amount of unknowables.

Where is that leading us to? Nonsense, isn't it

Think deeply jse, a seeker cannot afford to be shallow. (Hint: knowledge is defined in the context of Mind, which is vast but not infinite, it has limitations. What are those limitations? What is Mind? What is knowledge? Contemplate....) And if I am making a mistake, let me know. I am here to learn.

[jse]

 

 

42 minutes ago, PureExp said:

Think deeply jse, a seeker cannot afford to be shallow.

@PureExp , let me put this in such a way a deep thinker like yourself can perhaps understand:

Whilst the complete infinite knowledge may not possibly "fit" within the confines of the finite mind, every part of this vast knowledge has the potential to be discovered and understood by finite minds.  There are no unknowables, only unknowns - don't let semantics trip you up.

Edited March 14, 2017 by jse

[Nahm]

If I'm a ??and I presume you want to be a ?? , Then what does ?? =              ?

[PureExp]

@jse How do you know that it has that potential? Can a finite thing contain infinity?

What are your definitions of mind, knowledge, infinity, existence etc?

Once you define those, I will be able to see your line of thinking.

[Nahm]

I'm just gonna chime in completely unsolicited and take a stab.  

Choice. OMG what you are missing is that you are the CHOOSER.

 

[jse]

@PureExp , name an "unknowable".

[PureExp]

@jse What is your definition of unknowable?

And of other things I mentioned. We need to be on same page.

[jse]

2 hours ago, PureExp said:

@jse What is your definition of unknowable?

And of other things I mentioned. We need to be on same page.

@PureExp , forget the other things - required explanations are way too long, if not irrelevant.

"Unknowable" - simply something that cannot possibly be known by either the mind or heart - do you have an example of this?

[PureExp]

@jseAn example, we just discussed - how does nothingness produce something?

Another - how does change appear in a changeless consciousness?

Another - what are qualia?

 

[jse]

2 hours ago, PureExp said:

how does nothingness produce something?

How does a magician create the seemingly impossible?  Through illusion.   We may or may not know the actual mechanism behind it, but this cannot be proven to be unknowable.

2 hours ago, PureExp said:

how does change appear in a changeless consciousness?

How does motion seemingly  arise from still pictures in movies?   We may or may not know, but this is not unknowable.

2 hours ago, PureExp said:

what are qualia?

How many angels on the head of a pin?   These are concepts arising from the illusory mind.   We may or may not remain ignorant, but from my perspective this is not unknowable.

Now, a Quantum physicist would argue that because we cannot determine the exact location and momentum of a particle at any given time, this would be a classical argument for the unknowable.  My feeling is that this conundrum arises from being trapped in our materialistic paradigm - e.g., the question is fundamentally flawed due to our limited viewpoint.  This may change as our paradigm shifts and we gain more knowledge, so this is not unknowable.   Related: Mu

 

Unknowable  #262464195387

Fun fact:
Graham's Number is so large that the observable universe is far too small to contain a digital or written description of it.
Yet we know it ends in 7.

 

Edited March 15, 2017 by jse