The epistomological problem in regards to the Russia-Ukraine conflict.

[Nightwise]

I've been thinking about this issue for some longer time. I see everywhere, including on this forum, that western people almost without exception believe that the narrative that they've been told about what is going on with the conflict between Russia and Ukraine is true, at least in the overarching theme of it. That is: That Russia attacked a sovereign nation that is Ukraine without provocation, without a proper justification (but a lot of ungrounded ones), and Russia's or Putin's actual motive is simply expansion drift; To expand the Russian territory out of territorial greed. On top of that, we westerners believe that Russia's military is bombing cities with thousands of innocent civilians being stuck there.

Earlier this morning I read an article in the newspaper that the chinese (social) media lets its people believe that Ukraine is the country that provoked Russia to attack them by attacking Russia first. I also read that the Chinese media frames it that the Ukrainian military is attacking its own civilians, and that they are using very dirty tactics to gain the upper hand on the Russians.

Yes, there is an assumption here that the news I've read about this story about what the Chinese media is doing is indeed correct, but let's for the sake of simplicity and convenience indeed assume for now that that news is indeed correct, just so I am able to continue my topic and make my point .

This made me think. How do we really know what is true and what is not in regards to the information that we're being fed? How are we any different from the Chinese or Russian media that frames it in this way that the people of the Russian military are the good guys and the Ukrainian military are the bad guys? We (as westerners) are simply doing the reverse. We are simply taking the information that we're being fed for granted. We trust the news sources that we are getting our information from, just as Russians or Chinese people trust the sources they get their information from and don't question them.

I can guarantee you that we as westerners are being manipulated by the media on this whole issue. I'm not even saying that the information that we're being fed is necessarily incorrect, but the stories that the media tell and the images that they showcase on television and on social media sites like Youtube or Twitter, and really the whole algorhytm of Youtube, Twitter, Facebook and so forth are essentially manipulating our mind and emotions to more and more adopt this attitude of shock, upset, outrage and to become more and more polarized against not only Putin and the Russian military, but in many cases also Russia as a whole.

Again, even if we're to assume that the information that we're being fed is indeed correct —And how can we be so certain about that if Russian and Chinese media are doing the same thing with all the justifications that they have to believe that (just as we have all of our justifications)— But even if we assume that the news we get is actually true and valid, notice that what we get to see from the (social) media is very selective and partial. We for instance get to see and hear from the Russian military bombing a Children's hospital, but we don't hear from the Ukrainian military or certain individuals from Ukraine or its military committing the same kinds of despicable war crimes. You might say that if they were to do that it would be justified, but this again is just another narrative and justification, you see? We humans are capable of committing the most horrendous and despicable acts if we tell ourselves stories that it is justified. And so continues that cycle of hatred, violence and fragmentation. The Russian military is doing it, and I'm sure Ukrainian individuals out there are doing it as well. Justified or not, it is essentially the same dynamic, the same pattern.

I simply wrote this topic because I want to prompt a cognitive intervention for those who have gotten all caught up in all the narratives that the news and (social) media has been feeding you, and now you've adopted this deeply rooted victim-perpetrator mindset where the Ukrainians are the good guys and the Russians or Putin and its military are the bad guys.

 

On a last note, I actually have a request for you guys on quite a (but not completely) different topic: Does any of you guys know a movie, documentary or (audio)book or some other source of information that really goes in-depth on the mental attitudes that war criminals or other (would-be) hateful and sadistic people adopt? I for instance am really interested in knowing what goes on in someone's mind of someone who used to be a vicious concentration camp guard, for example. Or a documentary about a military unit in training who later become the kind of people who will do anything that their leaders tell them to do, such as bombing cities with thousands of civilians in it like we're (seemingly) seeing happening right now. Who are these kind of people who commit and justify such actions? What is their background? How did they grow up? Why are they willing to do anything their superiors tell them? Is it hatred? Is it fear of punishment if they don't follow orders? Is it just a mechanical act they are capable of doing simply because they have convinced themselves that what they're doing is proper and justified? Is it just pure moral apathy? What lead up to the point until they became desensitized to the suffering of those they are attacking?

I'm also for instance curious about the difference between people who commit violence and torture to others with a sense of passion and without a sense of passion. As f*cked up as it may be, some people actually enjoy and delight in torturing others and seeing others suffer, and others simply do it out of a sense of obligation or to remain a sense of control over their environment. So I'm also curious to learn about people who commit violence with a sense of passion and delight because it's something I really can't understand from personal experience what's so attractive about that (except when it comes to sexual encounters, but only then when I know my partner is genuinly willing and ready to experience it).

I hope you guys can help me out on that .

Edited March 21, 2022 by Nightwise

[Blackhawk]

10 minutes ago, Nightwise said:

I simply wrote this topic because I want to prompt a cognitive intervention for those who have gotten all caught up in all the narratives that the news and (social) media has been feeding you, and now you've adopted this deeply rooted victim-perpetrator mindset where the Ukrainians are the good guys and the Russians or Putin and its military are the bad guys.

You don't get it.

The Ukrainians are the victims, and the Russian leadership/soldiers are the bad guys. That is the truth.

It's not some propaganda by west.

Your mind is poisoned by the Russian propaganda.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Blackhawk

[Blackhawk]

This will be another thread where everyone loves Putin and hates USA/Nato. Even if it's in subtle ways by doing mind tricks.

I'm outta here. Bye.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Blackhawk

[vladorion]

On this forum you'll be called a Putin apologist or something of that sort if you dare to entertain any point of view other than what the Western media is telling you.

This is a forum of very open-minded people.

[vladorion]

12 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

You don't get it.

The Ukrainians are the victims, and the Russian leadership/soldiers are the bad guys. That is the truth.

It's not some west propaganda.

Your mind is poisoned by the Russian propaganda.

You're right, the Ukrainians are the victims.

Not the Ukrainian government.

The Ukrainian government killed their own people who were anti-Maidan and pro-Russia starting from 2014. They're as bad as Putin.

Edited March 21, 2022 by vladorion

[Nightwise]

11 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

You don't get it.

The Ukrainians are the victims, and the Russian leadership/soldiers are the bad guys. That is the truth.

It's not some propaganda by west.

Your mind is poisoned by the Russian propaganda.

Dude, your reply is examplary of exactly that which concerns me. I'm not influenced by Russian propaganda. I have literally seen zero of it. And neither have I seen any chinese propaganda. I'm making an epistomological point here. I'm not interested in taking any sides.

[Blackhawk]

10 minutes ago, vladorion said:

You're right, the Ukrainians are the victims.

Not the Ukrainian government.

The Ukrainian government killed their own people who were anti-Maidan and pro-Russia starting from 2014. They're as bad as Putin.

The Ukrainian government is also a victim.

8 minutes ago, Nightwise said:

Dude, your reply is examplary of exactly that which concerns me. I'm not influenced by Russian propaganda. I have literally seen zero of it. And neither have I seen any chinese propaganda. I'm making an epistomological point here. I'm not interested in taking any sides.

But there is a side here which you should choose. There is a good side, and a bad side. If you don't choose the good side, then you aren't a decent human being. It's actually as a simple as that. Don't engage in whataboutism, mental games, and shit. Or try to play a smartass or something. There is a good side, and a bad side.

But that doesn't necessarily mean that the good side is 100% perfect.

Edited March 21, 2022 by Blackhawk

[vladorion]

Quote

The Ukrainian government is also a victim.

Yeah. A victim that doesn't mind killing their own people.

If you support a government that kills their own innocent people because they don't support that government, you're not a decent human being.

Edited March 21, 2022 by vladorion