If one does not want to dream any more, how could one cease to exist?

[WelcometoReality]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Existence is Absolute. It has no opposite.

You exist. Absolutely. The rest is mind games.

Isn't that what @BipolarGrowth is saying? ?

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, WelcometoReality said:

Isn't that what @BipolarGrowth is saying? ?

Is he?

[WelcometoReality]

2 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

Going through cessation showed me that whatever I am or this is transcends and includes both of these polarities.

@Leo Gura Well no you don't mean the same thing.

[Leo Gura]

15 minutes ago, Benton said:

@Leo Gura So it isn’t any-thing. But it exists? 
Nevermind, not anything outside this

It is YOU.

YOU exist. Here you are!

[Buba]

3 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

I could talk about that for an hour easily, but here’s a good thing which encapsulates a lot of what I might say: 

From https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_truths_doctrine#Madhyamaka

“Nāgārjuna based his statement of the two truths on the Kaccāyanagotta Sutta. In the Kaccāyanagotta Sutta, the Buddha, speaking to the monk Kaccayana Gotta on the topic of right view, describes the middle Way between nihilsm and eternalism: 

By and large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by a polarity, that of existence and non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, "non-existence" with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, "existence" with reference to the world does not occur to one.[29]”

 

I would say that what is is neither existence nor nonexistence. Going through cessation showed me that whatever I am or this is transcends and includes both of these polarities.
 

In another sense, I would say that existence and nonexistence cannot have any true relationship. They can never touch one another to have a relationship. There can only be the appearance of a relationship from the perspective of experience/existence. 

I never had an enlightenment experience, but I had a Dark Night of the Soul. And during this time once an idea came to me. I don't know if I saw something, experienced something or just thought something, but the idea was "the answer to the question, if God exists or does not exist, is there is no "exist" or "does not exist" in that realm".

[WelcometoReality]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Existence is Absolute. It has no opposite.

You exist. Absolutely. The rest is mind games.

Where does a sound goes when it fades away?

To me it seems to go into... whatever you want to call it.

 

Edited March 17, 2022 by WelcometoReality

[Barna]

You are not the one who doesn't want to exist. You are awareness being aware of the ego that doesn't want to exist.

If the ego doesn't want to exist then you can disidentify from the desire to not exist. This way the part of the ego who doesn't want to exist simply disappears. But you, awareness, remains, with your indifference to existing or not existing.

Just ask yourself: who is the one in me who doesn't want to exist?

[BipolarGrowth]

10 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

Isn't that what @BipolarGrowth is saying? ?

I’m essentially saying the same thing. Existence is the only thing that can have a perspective. Nonexistence doesn’t exist from the perspective of existence. Nonexistence cannot have a perspective. There is no experiential thing that can contact nonexistence. Nonexistence is pure imagination. But there can be a strong appearance of nonexistence actually occurring in a sense, and this appearance of nonexistence can have profound effects within existence. 

[WelcometoReality]

8 minutes ago, BipolarGrowth said:

I’m essentially saying the same thing. Existence is the only thing that can have a perspective. Nonexistence doesn’t exist from the perspective of existence. Nonexistence cannot have a perspective. There is no experiential thing that can contact nonexistence. Nonexistence is pure imagination. But there can be a strong appearance of nonexistence actually occurring in a sense, and this appearance of nonexistence can have profound effects within existence. 

Depending on what one points to with the word existence and non-existence both can make sense. I agree that the word non-existence is problematic but it resonates more to me when talking about the source than existence. Not saying you were using it that way. You seem to use it to describe a quality of certain experiences or, to be more exact, non-experiences.

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

Where does a sound goes when it fades away?

To me it seems to go into... whatever you want to call it.

Into Infinity.

[WelcometoReality]

17 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Into Infinity.

Yeah, we call it different names depending on where on the continuum we are.

[Alex_R]

4 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

I’m essentially saying the same thing. Existence is the only thing that can have a perspective. Nonexistence doesn’t exist from the perspective of existence. Nonexistence cannot have a perspective. There is no experiential thing that can contact nonexistence. Nonexistence is pure imagination. But there can be a strong appearance of nonexistence actually occurring in a sense, and this appearance of nonexistence can have profound effects within existence. 

So, when i die, where i will go?

[UnbornTao]

53 minutes ago, Alex_R said:

So, when i die, where i will go?

Perhaps your nature wasn’t born, therefore can’t die. You are “that” now. 

UnbornTao  

Edited March 17, 2022 by UnbornTao

[JuliusCaesar]

5 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

I’m essentially saying the same thing. Existence is the only thing that can have a perspective. Nonexistence doesn’t exist from the perspective of existence. Nonexistence cannot have a perspective. There is no experiential thing that can contact nonexistence. Nonexistence is pure imagination. But there can be a strong appearance of nonexistence actually occurring in a sense, and this appearance of nonexistence can have profound effects within existence. 

When you say nonexistence you're referring to what I mean when I say nothing. I differentiate between nothing and nonexistence when I describe these things. Because as you know nothing exists as pure formless/non-attributional existence. Whereas nonexistence is a concept that points to something that's utterly impossible which is to refer to something that isn't. Even nothing is, and as such can't not be in existence as all existence consists of nothing. Of course, we could play with words and redefine nonexistence to mean what I refer to when I say nothing. But that makes our use of language more convoluted and less parsimonious, much more likely to confuse our other-selves trying to comprehend us when we describe these things that are outside of their direct experience.

[BipolarGrowth]

2 hours ago, JuliusCaesar said:

When you say nonexistence you're referring to what I mean when I say nothing. I differentiate between nothing and nonexistence when I describe these things. Because as you know nothing exists as pure formless/non-attributional existence. Whereas nonexistence is a concept that points to something that's utterly impossible which is to refer to something that isn't. Even nothing is, and as such can't not be in existence as all existence consists of nothing. Of course, we could play with words and redefine nonexistence to mean what I refer to when I say nothing. But that makes our use of language more convoluted and less parsimonious, much more likely to confuse our other-selves trying to comprehend us when we describe these things that are outside of their direct experience.

I’m not talking about nothing, nothingness, void, or anything of the sort. I’m talking about nonexistence. I’m talking about the lack of consciousness, the lack of experience, the lack of anything whatsoever. It is completely the opposite of anything experiential. Nonexistence is impossible to be experienced, and if you view experience to be all there can be, then nonexistence is certainly impossible in that framework. 
 

I hardly ever talk about nothing, nothingness, void, etc, so if you interpret me as saying something about any of those things, it’s likely that there’s a misinterpretation/miscommunication or difference in definitions. 

[BipolarGrowth]

3 hours ago, Alex_R said:

So, when i die, where i will go?

There will likely just be another experience of some sort. The specifics of what that will be like are impossible to know. 

[BipolarGrowth]

8 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

Depending on what one points to with the word existence and non-existence both can make sense. I agree that the word non-existence is problematic but it resonates more to me when talking about the source than existence. Not saying you were using it that way. You seem to use it to describe a quality of certain experiences or, to be more exact, non-experiences.

You can essentially use non-experience in place of nonexistence when reading my posts. 
 

A lot of people seem to resonate with source in the same way I think you’re describing it here. 
 

To me, source = appearance as I see there as being no other moment than this and nothing other than what is perceived, felt, thought, sensed, etc. in this moment. So essentially whatever you experience in the moment is the source of that experience in my view of things. 

[WelcometoReality]

1 hour ago, BipolarGrowth said:

To me, source = appearance as I see there as being no other moment than this and nothing other than what is perceived, felt, thought, sensed, etc. in this moment.

Yes, there only the present moment. But not only the appearance of the moment but also the awareness of it.

2 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

So essentially whatever you experience in the moment is the source of that experience in my view of things. 

Well cessation shows you the essential core of experience. It's a non-experience since it's beyond sensory input but something (you have to read between the lines here) is aware of cessation happening or we wouldn't be able to talk about it.

This core can be sensed (again you have to read between the lines here) while experiences are happening. That place is beyond experience and it is the core of what you are.

 

[Vignan]

@Barna beautifully put

[JuliusCaesar]

21 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

I hardly ever talk about nothing, nothingness, void, etc, so if you interpret me as saying something about any of those things, it’s likely that there’s a misinterpretation/miscommunication or difference in definitions. 

It's possible that we are using a slightly different lexicon.

 

21 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

Nonexistence is impossible to be experienced,

Interesting, why then are we discussing nonexistence as if it's a thing to be experienced then? Or are you trying to articulate something that's impossible to articulate given the limitations of our language? I mean, is not everything in your direct experience all things that exist? And therefore there is nothing outside of your experience rendering all conventional human concepts like time, physics, etc, etc completely and utterly nonsensical? Or are you trying to tell me there's some level of awakening beyond that you've experienced where nonexistence is somehow possible?

 

21 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

I’m talking about nonexistence. I’m talking about the lack of consciousness, the lack of experience, the lack of anything whatsoever. It is completely the opposite of anything experiential.

I can grasp what you're saying conceptually, but have either of us actually experienced nonexperience/nonexistence before? I mean, I know of nothing in my awareness, the problem with the nothing I'm referring to is that it in fact exists. And yes it's devoid of all the content you mentioned, but I would say that it isn't somehow the inverse of existence or experience, more like its existence with no content within it.

 

21 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

and if you view experience to be all there can be, then nonexistence is certainly impossible in that framework. 

See, the problem I have with you saying this is I can't tell if you're engaging in purely philosophical debate. Or if you actually somehow experienced/managed to exist as nonexistence/nonexperience. If you did, then how the hell did you achieve that? I can only imagine you smoked 3 corncob pipes filled with 160x Salvia extract within the span of 5 minutes.