Eating meat is Perfect. Consider not doing it.

[voxun]

On 3/14/2022 at 10:41 PM, Knowledge Hoarder said:

I don't consider myself to be the most emphathetic person on the planet - but I understand that modern farms are way too cruel and inhumane - they kinda have to be, though, since there's more than 7 billion of us now - on a steady way to 8 billion in no time. Efficiency is therefore important - for both production and profit. Demand needs to be fullfilled. The price for that is, of course, animal suffering.

Maybe replacing animal products with purely plant based diet is the correct way forward, idk. Certainly seems that way from the macro perspective. From the individual perspective though - not so much, since plant based protein is simply not the same as animal based one. There are certain things missing - not an expert, but I'm pretty sure that is the case.

The ultimate solution would be to grow synthetic meat in a lab, somehow. Perhaps extremely advanced 3D printers may be suitable for this job. But that's distant future.

To be honest, I don't mind killing animals when it's a fair killing - when they got a chance to escape/defend themselves - like for example, shooting a rabit with a bow? but then again, like I've said, I'm not the most emphathetic person.

My grandmother used to cook a great rabbit dish. My grandfather didn't use a bow and arrow he just trew the rabit against the wall. But hey they where born in the 1920s. Different times ?

[Arthogaan]

Guys. We need more stage yellow thinking here. It is not so simple.

I was on keto/omnivore for 4 years and I felt really good and I liked a lot of things about it. I was also purely vegan for over a year and had great blood results and I like many things about it. 

There are people that would be malnourished by vegan diet. I am not one of them. There would be a lot of people that would be miserable on carnivore diet. We really need to start to realize how much optimal eating is dependend on each individual. There are a lot of 10+ years vegan that feel great. There are many long term omnivores that feel great. But if we can why not deacrese the amount of suffering.

Also if I would feel worse lets say 10-20% because of not eating meat, I would probably still not eat meat. I am just a kind of person that would do that kind of sacrifice for less suffering. But lets say that my specific body would feel 50% worse. That would actually not be the price I am willing to take and I would eat meat again. Lets not judge anyone on each side.

I would not eat meat even if it would be produced in harmony. Part of my personal journey is to learn to see the Creator in each being and feeling more campassion. But it is just my mission. 


There was a study in which a child were to choose to kill a human vs dog. On average kids valued 1 dog life = 2 human lifes.
We are conditioned with advertising that eating meat is so loffy-duffy. Each chicken and pig in an advertisemnt smiles and is happy to be eaten. There is no blood. There was a Carefour (supermarket) that on some occasion decided to sell ducks with feathers on its meat compartment. There was a huge outburst that it is unethical to sell such animals with heads and feathers. We are so conditioned that average person does not even see meat as part of animal, a corpse, muscles. It is just meat in their minds. It is not natural for most people to hunt for an animal. We are deeple detached. Love ya.

[Arthogaan]

Yes, I totally agree it would still be huge and thats what we should focus too. I also do not eat meat at all to inspire others in a way. If maybe my family sees that I do not eat it for many years maybe it will be enough for them to deacrese consumption by 20%. Thats the function of being a change.

 

18 minutes ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

I dissagree with this, to be honest.

There is nothing to disagree - I just said that it would be a treshold for me that conceptual 20%. For you it is maybe 1%. For some highly ideological propaganda vegans probably 50%. 

Edited March 17, 2022 by Arthogaan

[Random witch]

I'm vegan for conscientious reasons.

 I take b12.

I'm healthy, my hair looks amazing, skin is fabulous, no dark circles under the eyes, no acne, no gut problems. Overall health is stunning, blood tests are good, energy levels are high.

It's as if I took an indirect path to avoid so many common health problems of people today. 

 

I think that eating meat and dairy products today has almost no benefits, only damage to health and environment.

 

 

 

Edited March 17, 2022 by Random witch

[Gidiot]

I think if you’re looking at diet most people don’t look at ethical arguments, if you just want a healthy diet sure maybe veganism isn’t the best for everybody on the planet in 2022, but to me arguments for vegan diets are ethical ones and nutritional information comes second even though there is overwhelming evidence that vegans have better blood and reduced risk of heart disease and other ailments. 
 

it’s just like other products Nike may make the coolest looking shoes but they sure as hell aren’t the most ethical products.

It’s about what you care about, if you care about reducing animal suffering than veganism is the way to go. If you don’t than obviously it’s not going to be a compelling argument. I would venture though that this animal holocaust that is happening on the planet cannot evade humanity forever and eventually we are going to have to care about it’s implications. You judge the growth of a society but how it treats it’s least fortune and most defenseless , and it’s obvious humanity is still a primitive one.

[DocWatts]

5 hours ago, Gidiot said:

I think if you’re looking at diet most people don’t look at ethical arguments

Identifying it as a matter of Care is the core of it.

The majority of human beings haven't developed to the point that the exploitation of other human beings is a matter of serious concern if it's not happening directly in front of them, so it's not surprising that concern for non-human animals isn't even on the radar for most folks.

To get to that point, someone has to develop where Care is extended to beings that one has no investment in.

That's a big ask for most people, as it involves deconstructing the sorts of ego-defense mechanisms that allow us to benefit from the exploitation of others without paying the emotional and spiritual costs that that entails. 

Societal structures puts the suffering and exploitation that make contemporary consumer society possible behind high walls, where one has to go out of their way and be highly motivated to even begin grappling with these sorts of ethical concerns in a serious way.

Yet I suspect that even if somehow visiting a factory farm was a requirement for being 'allowed' to consume meat, even in this scenario most people would continue to do so because it's not enough just to show people things, there has to be an Internal Transformation for any real change.

[jimwell]

15 hours ago, DocWatts said:

Yet I suspect that even if somehow visiting a factory farm was a requirement for being 'allowed' to consume meat, even in this scenario most people would continue to do so because it's not enough just to show people things, there has to be an Internal Transformation for any real change.

It's 4:10 am in my country and I'm sleepy as fuck. But I need to say this before going to sleep:

Humans don't even care enough about kids being disrespected and abused. And humans also don't care enough about their fellow humans who are starving on the cold sidewalks. Otherwise, there would have been global protests against child abuse and homelessness, much more and much bigger than the current anti-Russian Invasion protests. 

There's no chance that humans will care enough about the pain and suffering of butchered animals. It surely won't happen in this century. We just need to be at peace with that. 

Edited March 19, 2022 by jimwell
enhanced the grammar

[ValiantSalvatore]

I contemplated this from a very young age as my aunt was Vegan and took care of many Animals and had an animal shelter. Sometimes it felt like she'd even put animals above humans and she consistently changed her diet choice for various reasons

I lived Vegan and Vegeterian and generally from a level of consciouness perspective there is no way an animal as the same level of profundity then a human or complexity. You can even say that plants and insects have a level of consciouness as well as complexity that resembles that of a human. As a counter-argument to my argument above including animals.

Just when you look at the sheer amazing complexity of life itself. Yet the issue is making it a 100% egaliterian and equalizing perspective and creating an absolutist stance which mostly causes backlashes because of the inherent moralizations, because everyone is supposed to be equal. This is impossible nobody is inherently totally equal. Equality is important, yet that does not mean we are all equal. Respecting the integrity and difference of the species is way more important.

Human beings would not have survived for eons without eating meat and there are various diets even within different climate zones that help people.

The overall point is that it is damaging because it is at an excess and animals are treated badly for selfish and demonic reasons as well as the effects it has on the globe as well on people themselves at an excess and it is abused 

If we as a whole would be more conscious about our consumption and of the various processes and systems that are in place we would definitely not slaughter billions of animals in cruel ways. The main issue is how do you solve this problem at the root? You want everyone to go Vegan and or Vegeterian? Create artifical meat that tastes similar as an alternative or lab produced meat that basically is meat? Find ways to reduce meat consumption on the planet by offering more healthy vegeterian and vegan options for people at grocery stores to keep factory farming at an minimum?

I don't think without taking it to a "non-dual" perspective that you are basically the animal and are eating yourself. What are the moral and ethic implications of that when you are at that level of realization? Even if it is within dream/maya you basically have to feed yourself. When you eat a plant you are eating yourself, when you eat insects you are eating yourself. Then overall this still has repercussions in the dream/real world/illusion basically it's an continous harmonization process of the largest whole possible causing the least damage. Without the higher holon... there would not even be the notion of equality instead of a utiliterian perspective.

It depends how you want to live and what creates equalibrium and the least damage overall for all participants on the globe. I don't think causality can be tricked so we cause zero causality and therefore damage, yet we definitely can reduce the overall damage of meat consumption by creating better conditions for animals and eating less meat. We are also animals/living beings, but we basically are the larger holon. Otherwise we would not have that much influence. 

Hope this is good food for thought, my thinking on this definitely is not fully ripe. Mabye it is dunno.

I do eat meat, I only eat chicken and fish, sometimes red meat, it depends if survival hits you most morals and ethics fly out of the window lol. 

[integral]

How do you expect to see anything clearly when your so emotionally biased to one side.