Eating meat is Perfect. Consider not doing it.

[Scholar]

7 minutes ago, mojsterr said:

I was in your place before. I was vegan too. But the more I contemplated it, the less sense it made. Everything kills each other. This is how life is made. We have just become too detached with ourselves and with our nature and are trying to go against it.

If you look at the animal kingdom and how an animal dies for another, you see it's fucking terrifying. They are being eaten alive and dying slowly in agonizing pain. The animals that dye quickly and painlessly are rare. So who am I to say I know better than life. It was created in this way and no other. I guess for a reason.

So I've come to tearms wth myself and if I really want to accept life as a whole, I have to accept the dark side, aswell as good side.

So I think meat is absolutely neccessary for humans to live healthy. This is how nature made us. No point in denying that.

 

The only thing I agree with would be the nature in how the animals live, while in cages and everything concerning the meat industry. It could be done better.

I don't think you actually accept the dark sides of life. You accept the dark sides of life if they serve you. For example, if you want to eat meat, you accept the dark sides of life. If someone rapes you and cuts your limbs off, you'll call for the institutions to protect you real quick.

In the end I think you will not apply your logic to humans and yourself because it wouldn't be self serving, and in my opinion all of this "contemplation" is about serving yourself rather than actually accepting anything. It's easy to accept suffering when it's not your suffering, and it's easy to accept death when it is not yours.

 

That's just more devilry in my book.

 

[mojsterr]

9 minutes ago, Scholar said:

I don't think you actually accept the dark sides of life. You accept the dark sides of life if they serve you. For example, if you want to eat meat, you accept the dark sides of life. If someone rapes you and cuts your limbs off, you'll call for the institutions to protect you real quick.

In the end I think you will not apply your logic to humans and yourself because it wouldn't be self serving, and in my opinion all of this "contemplation" is about serving yourself rather than actually accepting anything. It's easy to accept suffering when it's not your suffering, and it's easy to accept death when it is not yours.

 

That's just more devilry in my book.

 

But isn't life both? The good as well as the suffering? You can't have one without the other. This is how i understand the Yin and the Yang. If I deny one part, do I then really accept life in it's wholeness? I don't think this is an ego game. Quite the opposite, the ego doesn't want to accept the truth and the cruelty, so it makes up reasons for stuff like this. In my opinion.

I've done a lot of thinking and had to strip down all my beliefs and had to go deep and accept everything in it's entirety. I had to strip everything and this is what I have been left with. So it must be the only logical solution.

 

Edit: I wonder if Leo is vegan and what his thoughts are.

Edited March 16, 2022 by mojsterr

[mojsterr]

Yeah. There's people eating just and ONLY meat and have been curing their autoimmune diseases and having really good results generally with their health, and saying they never fealt this good before. The carnivore diet. I was pretty shocked when I learnt about this.

Total opposite of what I was taught before about meat.

Edited March 16, 2022 by mojsterr

[Scholar]

16 minutes ago, mojsterr said:

But isn't life both? The good as well as the suffering? You can't have one without the other. This is how i understand the Yin and the Yang. If I deny one part, do I then really accept life in it's wholeness? I don't think this is an ego game. Quite the opposite, the ego doesn't want to accept the truth and the cruelty, so it makes up reasons for stuff like this. In my opinion.

I've done a lot of thinking and had to strip down all my beliefs and had to go deep and accept everything in it's entirety. I had to strip everything and this is what I have been left with. So it must be the only logical solution.

 

Edit: I wonder if Leo is vegan and what his thoughts are.

I don't think you have stripped "all beliefs", you believe humans need meat to survive, which in my view showcases you have dogmatic belief systems intact, which infact makes your belief about having dissolved all beliefs all the more dangerous.

Again, I do not think you accept suffering, you accept suffering where it serves you. You don't actually suffer, and you avoid suffering actively, and willing to cause it to others to do so.

 

What you are saying a rapist could say too, imagine that as a defense in court. "My honor, we must accept the good aswell as the bad, which is why I raped this person, how could I not? It's the only possible logical conclusion, I know your ego won't recognize this your honor but, suffering must exist for joy to exist."

If you don't want to deny suffering, why not cause suffering to yourself, and the accept it? Why is it suffering that is outside of you, that is not direct to you, that you claim to accept? Try to eat only vegetables, and suffer. And accept the suffering that will come with it. Put your grand ideas to the test.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Scholar

[mojsterr]

Just now, Scholar said:

What you are saying a rapist could say too, imagine that as a defense in court. "My honor, we must accept the good aswell as the bad, which is why I raped this person, how could I not? It's the only possible logical conclusion, I know your ego won't recognize this your honor but, suffering must exist for joy to exist."

This argument would be valid if raping others was needed to survive. I think meat IS needed. I don't know if there is a single healthy long term (20+ years) vegan out there. And if there are, it's an anomaly, a somekind of exception, or that person won't be healthy much longer. I did, however, see results on people's bodies from long term veganism. Men growing boobs. Or looking ill or just weak, or just off. Totally different from our perception of a healthy body. I think you can delay the effects for years, but sooner or later it starts taking its toll.

Check the video I posted earlier. The woman did everything to supplement missing nutrients, did everything by the books, without exception, religiously. Tracked her macros, everythin, the whole while nine yards. In the end her body started failing her on all levels and she had to come to truth with herself.

It's an eye opening interview.

[mojsterr]

17 minutes ago, Scholar said:

I don't think you have stripped "all beliefs", you believe humans need meat to survive, which in my view showcases you have dogmatic belief systems intact, which infact makes your belief about having dissolved all beliefs all the more dangerous.

Again, I do not think you accept suffering, you accept suffering where it serves you. You don't actually suffer, and you avoid suffering actively, and willing to cause it to others to do so.

 

If you don't want to deny suffering, why not cause suffering to yourself, and the accept it? Why is it suffering that is outside of you, that is not direct to you, that you claim to accept?

I don't want to suffer but at the same time I have to accept that this is life, too. It's a tough game. But my goal is to not be angry at the dynamics of life, if it happens to me. No one wants to die, but at the same time, we all will. This is the hardest part to come to terms with.

But If I deny myself meat, I'm suffering again and destroying myself. I just can't win. So what should I do now? Either I kill something else and be judged that I don't love it, or slowly slowly keep destroying myself and with that, not love my own body, myself.

So when I think about it, it doesn't make any sense. There is no logic in this. That's why I had to strip all of the thinking and go to point zero again. To the source that made me and makes everything else live and go on. Like it always has.

The circle of life.

 

17 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Again, I do not think you accept suffering, you accept suffering where it serves you. You don't actually suffer, and you avoid suffering actively, and willing to cause it to others to do so.
 

Everything we do is because it serves us in some way or another. I can't escape this game. Why was I made this way if I'm not allowed to live through it. To me this is the point of being human. To accept everything. I will hurt and I will be hurt.

It's not hurting others because of some sick fantasy, but it's literally to survive. This is the difference.

Of course if you believe you can really live normal life untill the end without meat, then we won't come together.

But I'm really curious at how many healthy vegans there are, who have been vegan for decades. I'm willing to bet there aren't any.

Edited March 16, 2022 by mojsterr

[Scholar]

@mojsterr Look, I think you are not being honest with yourself at all. I think you have fallen victim to the carnivore dogmatism and I don't have the time and will to engage with that because it's like talking to a broken record in my experience.

I would urge you to inspect the idea that we need meat to survive, because that is where you are deluded in my opinion. It seems to me like you are motivated to believe that so you can continue with your behavior, or because you made some experiences in the past that make you dogmatically opposed to the idea of living without the consumption of meat.

[Scholar]

1 minute ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

Worth keeping this in mind.

I think B-12 is legit irreplacable, and you can only get it in a form of vitamin tablets - which is a poor substitute.

Balanced diet is the best diet. A bit of everything. We're omnivores after all.

Why do you say vitamin tablets are a poor substitute for B12? Vegans who take B12 have less occurance of B12 deficiency than omnivores.

 

I simply do not understand why people are just so willing to misrepresent facts and misinform people on this forum. You are not doing your basic duty as a member of a conscious community when you just willy nilly spread ideas around that you probably didn't even research yourself.

[mojsterr]

Just now, Scholar said:

@mojsterr Look, I think you are not being honest with yourself at all. I think you have fallen victim to the carnivore dogmatism and I don't have the time and will to engage with that because it's like talking to a broken record in my experience.

I would urge you to inspect the idea that we need meat to survive, because that is where you are deluded in my opinion. It seems to me like you are motivated to believe that so you can continue with your behavior, or because you made some experiences in the past that make you dogmatically opposed to the idea of living without the consumption of meat.

No, I already said I don't lke meat that much. If it were up to me, I wouldn't eat it at all. But from learning about health problems in vegans and what I have mentioned I had to accept things as they are, as they've always been. Before we started meddling with things and lost ourselves.

Listen to that interview, please. And tell me what you think, if it really is this crazy.

 

[mojsterr]

9 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Why do you say vitamin tablets are a poor substitute for B12? Vegans who take B12 have less occurance of B12 deficiency than omnivores.

 

I simply do not understand why people are just so willing to misrepresent facts and misinform people on this forum. You are not doing your basic duty as a member of a conscious community when you just willy nilly spread ideas around that you probably didn't even research yourself.

Watch the interview. Please.

She never missed a day. She carefully calculated her nutrients and got the same ammounts from plants. This went on for 20 years. Until her health started failing her. She lost the ability to have babies, it destroyed her uterus or something, can't remember. Besides all other stuff.

All of that got fixed when she finally went back to eating meat.

Why?

 

Edit: But perhaps there are exceptions who could do whole life without meat. But I seriously doubt it.

Edited March 16, 2022 by mojsterr

[Scholar]

2 minutes ago, mojsterr said:

No, I already said I don't lke meat that much. If it were up to me, I wouldn't eat it at all. But from learning about health problems in vegans and what I have mentioned I had to accept things as they are, as they've always been. Before we started meddling with things and lost ourselves.

Listen to that interview, please. And tell me what you think, if it really is this crazy.

 

I don't get my information from random people selling diet books, on some random website. We have research that has shown veganism to be sustainable and healthy if done responsibly, I think the carnivore community is largely based around paranoid fears and diet fads. But either way listening to interviews to get at truth is just a really bad idea, that's the best way to actually get into some really harmful ideology.

 

5 minutes ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

And your source for that is "trust me bro", I assume??

I will try to find the study but it was a long time ago and I don't keep them around, in the meantime you can get me that source on vitamin b12 supplementation being a poor substitute for avoiding b12 deficiency. One that actually includes all forms of supplementation and not just a particular form of B12, just as a heads-up.

[Sucuk Ekmek]

300 years later: You shouldn't let your shadow fall on these plants they suffer! 

[mojsterr]

13 minutes ago, Scholar said:

I don't get my information from random people selling diet books, on some random website.

Too bad. Because she has a really interesting take on life. What we're all about on this forum. But I understand.

Edited March 16, 2022 by mojsterr

[Scholar]

13 minutes ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

Might do so as a form of educating myself more about the topic. Read some scientific papers, etc. Despite my current omnivore opinion, I don't really hold any strong opinions on the topic, so I'm willing to be proven wrong. However, I'm going off of various first hand and second hand experiences - knowing vegans personally and watching some vegan youtubers. I'm not gonna say all of them look malnurished, but a good portion of them do. All the vegans I've known personally look terrible - white face, skinny etc. That's been my experience so far - which doesn't mean there aren't fit, healthy vegans out there, and unhealthy meat eaters, of course.

This is not the study I remember but it is also good:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC7779846/

You can take a look at eTable3.

 

 

And here:

https://veganhealth.org/vitamin-b12/homocysteine-and-mild-b12-deficiency-in-vegans/#Homocysteine-in-Vegetarians

 

 

[SgtPepper]

I would consider it if it didn't cause nutritional deficiencies. 

1 hour ago, Scholar said:

Why do you say vitamin tablets are a poor substitute for B12? 

They are designed to be supplements, not main sources.

If veganism + supplements were good/healthy, then there wouldn't be high rates of malnutrition in vegan community. 

[kamwalker]

I wonder how adamantly meat eaters would still defend their choice if they were forced to watch a video of the animal they are about to eat being tortured and slaughtered prior to every purchase. A lot of this still comes down to out of sight, out of mind. 

[Scholar]

12 hours ago, SgtPepper said:

I would consider it if it didn't cause nutritional deficiencies. 

They are designed to be supplements, not main sources.

If veganism + supplements were good/healthy, then there wouldn't be high rates of malnutrition in vegan community. 

Can you provide evidence that people who eat a well balanced vegan diet + supplements have a high rate of malnutrition? And no, videos on youtube are not sufficient to me.

[Scholar]

3 hours ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

I think they'd get sad for some time, maybe stop eating meat for some time - and then they'd bounce back to eating meat again, and come up with some justification. I guess human mind is quite good at that.

Most of the meat I eat is from a local sources, or from my extended family - so the animals are treated good, they are grass fed, and killed relatively humanely/quickly. I've killed a couple of chickens myself - just a quick decapitation, the animal dies almost instantly with minimal pain. Of course, the best, and the most fair way is to hunt it for yourself in a wilderness - I'd prefer it that way, personally. But that's impossible nowadays.

I perceive this to be psychopathic. In the end I think the only way to change people like you from existing is to social human beings properly, and nourish in them a connection to all life, and not simply to human life. I think if you had been socialized in a particular way, you would cut off the heads of human beings with as little care as you cut off the heads of chickens.

[zurew]

2 hours ago, Scholar said:

I think if you had been socialized in a particular way, you would cut off the heads of human beings with as little care as you cut off the heads of chickens.

Do you only have an issue with the brutality of killing an animal or you are having a problem with killing an animal as well. Why don't you have a problem with killing plant life? I think we shouldn't focus on the morality part that much i think there are much more better arguments for veganism or for vegetarianism if we are talking about enviroment protection and global catashropes. The morality part is problematic, because everyone draw their line at a different place.

I agree with you on the brutality of animal farming though. But that does not mean talking about morality can change animal farms, they don't give a shit about morality, they care about their own survival.So we need other arguments and other ways to change these things in the world.

In my opinion, you should rather advocate for certain practices for people such as meditation, yoga and psychedelics, so they can feel much more connected to other parts of life.  Of course this doesn't work on a massive scale, but when you are talking about an individual maybe its more effective to change his/her way of life this way.

Edited March 17, 2022 by zurew

[SgtPepper]

6 hours ago, Scholar said:

And no, videos on youtube are not sufficient to me.

To me they are. They are actually tend to be the most convincing since they share how complete their diet was and their supplementation process. I get that its anecdotal though, so I am not making a scientific decision.

If I go to wiki : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism. it reads, "Vegan diets tend to be higher in dietary fiber, magnesium, folic acid, vitamin C, vitamin E, iron, and phytochemicals, and lower in dietary energy, saturated fat, cholesterol, omega-3 fatty acid, vitamin D, calcium, zinc, and vitamin B12."

So I think, the best kind of diet, would include foods that make it easy to obtain all of these nutrients. Why don't you agree with this?

Edited March 17, 2022 by SgtPepper