Is it actually possible to heal autoimmune deseases?

[somegirl]

In the spirit of Leo's latest video, a big chunk of the video he talks about conflicts of every type; family and friends conflict, war conflict, conflicts within academia even, but also mentions body conflict and autoimmune deseases where essentially body attacks itself because it is in conflict with itself.

Now that we're aware that autoimmune desease is actually because body is "fighting" itself because one part of the body wants domination over another, from big picture perspective, can something be done about it? Can we make it stop being in conflict with itself and make peace within itself? 

I can bet we can find a story in some part of the world where one was able to cure such deseases.

Edited March 13, 2022 by somegirl

[zurew]

Maybe we can, maybe we can't. It comes down to the question of, how much control you can have over reality? or How much you can manipulate reality?

Using Leo's conflict theory can be very important in almost any field. 

Can we stop molecules bouncing around, just because we are using this philosophy? I don't think so, and i don't know if this philosophy can be good in an of itself for the use of manipulating reality. However, this philosophy can be a part of solving the problem, that you have mentioned.

This philosophy can be at a more better use, if we use it to give us a better understanding about some dynamics in a certain field or topic or conflict or system.

The body is fighting for its own survival agenda, and the disease fighting for its own survival as well. Because our survival agenda depends on our bodies, we will help our body's survival, so we will end the conflict between our body and the disease by escalating more the conflict counter intuitively. (because we are giving help to our body to kill the disease or to cure that particular disease)

Edited March 14, 2022 by zurew

[Federico del pueblo]

@somegirl

According to conventional medicine it's not. And I don't want to make conventional medicine look bad or anything, but it is simply generally not very good at curing chronic diseases (not just the subtype of autoimmune diseases), because it's operating with the wrong paradigm.

For acute diseases and problems that are very local (like a dysfunctional hip joint), medicine does often a great job.

Many people have healed autoimmune diseases and other diseases that are labelled "incurable".

You will find recovery stories/testimonials for the most "incurable" diseases you could think of, including things like multiple sclerosis, Parkinson, Hashimoto, chronic fatigue syndrome, very severe PTSD. In some book I even read about a case where someone suffering from AIDS had a transcendental experience and after that the AIDS regressed back to just HIV.

What most of these stories share in common is that these people trusted their intuition and never gave up, they did a lot of research and tried out many things but also developed a holistic understanding of their illness. 

Many of these people had to overcome emotional trauma to enable the body's capacity to heal itself, as your body can't heal when it's in a state of fight or flight (which is what you're experiencing when you're traumatized because you're getting triggered a lot and have like a constant hum of anxiety in the background).

Also realise this: As long as medical science hasn't understood how to cure a certain illness this illness will be regarded as incurable. It doesn't matter to medicine whether some people have cured a illness. If medicine can't explain how to cure it, it's incurable, even if people have cured it. It's then just considerd to be a inexplicable spontaneous remission.

[Preety_India]

I don't think it's completely curable but I do think it's possible to delay future potential symptoms with extreme care. 

 

[aurum]

@somegirl  

The Wim Hof Method has had a lot of success tackling autoimmune disease.

From the scientific POV, the breathing technique he teaches causes the body to reset the nervous system by dropping oxygen levels. And the cold has shown to decrease inflammatory markers, stimulate the immune system, increase vascular health, etc.

But I believe it goes deeper than the science. Monks were doing Wim’s breathing technique way before he was (Tummo). And they didn’t know anything about oxygen saturation. So why were they doing it?

The answer has to do with Spirit. The Wim Hof method realigns you with God. Which is why healing occurs. But this is obviously way outside the scientific paradigm, so it has to be talked about purely in terms materialists can understand.

[mojsterr]

Anthony William says that the body attacking itself is a myth. The body loves itself, it wants to exist, why would it do such a thing?

I have Hashimoto's, that's how I found out about him. For Hashimoto's he says that in 95% it's Epstein-Barr Virus, which conventional medicine just hasn't figured out yet is the cause. EBV is the cause of many many other diseases, too, he says.

So the body is actually attacking the virus, which is in the thyroid.

 

The term Autoimmune has been coined, I don't know, some 100 years ago, when medicine wasn't that advanced and they didn't know what is causing certain conditions and they said it must be the body attacking itself.

This logic has still stayed with them until now and no one really tries to find the real cause, they just settled with this explanation.

 

So, the underlying point is this. There's always something else. The body would never harm itself.

 

Unforunatelly my condition is in stage 4 and I'm not able to heal it so far in, because the thyroid can't regrow. But this is the point of his books.

 

It sounds logical to me.

 

Edited March 14, 2022 by mojsterr

[undeather]

8 hours ago, somegirl said:

In the spirit of Leo's latest video, a big chunk of the video he talks about conflicts of every type; family and friends conflict, war conflict, conflicts within academia even, but also mentions body conflict and autoimmune deseases where essentially body attacks itself because it is in conflict with itself.

Now that we're aware that autoimmune desease is actually because body is "fighting" itself because one part of the body wants domination over another, from big picture perspective, can something be done about it? Can we make it stop being in conflict with itself and make peace within itself? 

I can bet we can find a story in some part of the world where one was able to cure such deseases.

Yes, its definitely possible to heal (some) autoimmune conditions. 

Lets assume an autoimmune disease is like a civil war.
The approach of conventional medicine would be disarmament (targeted suppression of certain kinds of immune function). The obvious solution however, would be to find out why the conflict started in the first place. This is the regime of complexity medicine. 

The nature of autoimmunity is that the underlying cause is usually highly individual, multifactorial (many factors come into play) and combinatorial (risk factors combine and create new emergent properties). This is a big problem because the best tools we have to find out "what causes what", namely epidemiological analysis and clinical trials, get exponentially worse to the degree of complexity that is involved in the studied phenomenon. Thats why we are really good at treating acute, monocausal things like bacterial infections or heart attacks - but we kinda suck at finding out why the body of a person with Lupus oder Crohn's disease basically starts killing itself. 

I got involved in this couple of years ago when I met a guy who reversed his neurodegenerative condition with a complexity approach. He suffered from a pretty nasty case of MS (Multiple sclerosis), which would have destroyed his quality of life & cognitive abilites in a matter of months. His neurologists told him that they basically cant do anything to stop it, that this is  his fate and he should learn to deal with it. Long story short - he became an expert in MS, read everything there is to read about it, did some complexitiy medicine testing - supplemented with high doses of certain drugs & vitamins, got rid of the mold exposure in his house and some other toxins - and COMPLETELY reversed his condition. 

There are a lot of cases like these.
Now, that said, - there are a lot of charlatans working in this field. So if you suffer from an autoimmune condition, be careful. Go out there and look for alternative approaches, but dont be naive about it. There are some doctors who specialize in complexity medicine (like me), but we are extremely rare. If you can find one who is willing to work with you, then this is like a golden ticket. 

Also, lets not badmouth the mainstream approach. Immune-modulating therapies can be a life saver and such a wonderful tool for some patients. If you come to me with an accute Crohn's disease-episode and you have been basically shitting blood for the last 5 days, everything hurts and your life is pure hell - trust me, you want that Cortisone-shot.

Edited March 14, 2022 by undeather

[Michael569]

As long as all causative factors are being treated, it is definitely possible. Not in all cases and not autoimmune conditions probably. 

Agreed with the above that for anyone who has been suffering the symptoms of a crippling condition, immunotherapy literally restores their life back, at least while it lasts. There are side effects but it is probably better to end up with osteoporosis induced by steroids rather than blindness and permanent disability induced by MS so it is a cost-benefit analysis. 

It's not medicine's fault that it cannot "cure" conditions, it is just that the way system is setup where doctors have 5 minutes for a patient and the system is so incredibly overloaded, underfunded and poorly managed (at least where I live) that it is impossible o even consider having an in-depth talk, unless you go private ofcourse. With a patient with autoimmunity, you need to spend 4-5 hours exploring their life, childhood health, teenage heal, life-long diet patterns, stress patterns, habits, chemical exposures, sleep patterns, traumas and stresses of previous generations that have accumulated over the decades. You can' do that in a 5-minute consultation so of course they cannot cure you. It is kinda unfair to portray the poor doc as the bad guy since a lot of people do get the help they seek. You gotta understand that a lot of patients who come to doctors are not looking for a cure that would stem out of changing their behaviour and lifestyle (usually necessary in AI disease), they are just seeking the pain to go away....that's it. And the meds & the injections do that very well. 

If you are willing to go deep. The deepest you've ever gone and allow someone to explore absolutely every corner of your health with you and spend 2 years on a radical lifestyle therapy that will include completely transforming the person's life, nutrition, environment, sleep, stress management and probably spending a lot of money doing that and being patient, super openminded and persistent, then you may be able to cure it. 

A single technique is unlikely to do that. First, the person has to eliminate every potential culprit from their life because no autoimmune disease is unifactorial and it is impossible to measure or test for the exact cause so you are also looking to potentially explore a lot of dead ends but that has to be part of the treatment. 

But a half-assed therapy "e.g. taking a bunch of Boswellia for your IBD because Dr Axe made a 5 minute video on Crohn's Disease and expecting that to cure you" will just be time wasted that could have been spent getting some proper treatment. 

It is a good idea to receive standard medical therapy for symptomatic management and when you get your life back by better symptomatic management, work hard on identifying the root cause, not just settling for meds. Use the meds to give you time energy and the motivation you didn't have when suffering from nasty flare-ups and the find someone who specialises in that particular condition and start looking for the root cause

 

[zurew]

41 minutes ago, Michael569 said:

It's not medicine's fault that it cannot "cure" conditions, it is just that the way system is setup where doctors have 5 minutes for a patient and the system is so incredibly overloaded, underfunded and poorly managed (at least where I live) that it is impossible o even consider having an in-depth talk, unless you go private ofcourse.

Do you think there could be a better way or approach to find out the causality factors, or it totally depends on the situation and on the context?

How would you set up the healthcare system differently? How would a stage yellow healthcare system would look like in your opinion?

Btw i agree with you, that nowadays more and more people are talking down on the mainstream approaches. But we forget that it is really effective on some level, and of course there will be parts where it isn't so effective. The question is, how should we change it so it is more suitable and effective for everyone. Probably my question is just partly right, because you can't just change one system (healthcare) and expect other bigger systems (economy, politics and so on) just to adapt to it, probably it will go the other way around, but regardless, what is you take on it?

[Michael569]

1 hour ago, zurew said:

Do you think there could be a better way or approach to find out the causality factors, or it totally depends on the situation and on the context?

There are endless attempt to identify the causality factors but it is incredibly hard to pinpoint single things that causes a disease because of the endless variables that are always in play. At the same time, you can't lock humans in some sort of lab experiment, feed them different toxins or other crap and see which groups develop what diseases so we are stuck with epidemiology which despite having an immense value, has its own limitations when it comes to identifying the causative factors although it can be good at extrapolating correlations. 

1 hour ago, zurew said:

How would you set up the healthcare system differently? How would a stage yellow healthcare system would look like in your opinion?

I'd say that's an idea for an actualized.org video in the future  @Leo Gura

1 hour ago, zurew said:

The question is, how should we change it so it is more suitable and effective for everyone. Probably my question is just partly right, because you can't just change one system (healthcare) and expect other bigger systems (economy, politics and so on) just to adapt to it, probably it will go the other way around, but regardless, what is you take on it?

It needs to start with early life education. Kids are often sick because their parents are sick and parent that knows nothing about health will raise an unhealthy child unconsciously. 
In my opinion, children in elementary school should be taught about health, basics of nutrition and doing the right choices for their health. habits that have been wired in youth are extremely different to rewire in the adulthood. Kids ned to be educated on the importance of sleep, of eating fruits and vegetables of playing and doing activities rather than playing video games and eating shit. 

Same way kids should be taught about ecology, environmental protection, kindness for animals as well as financial competence and basics of sexual education instead of being forced to memorise poems, religious texts, literature books and complex math formulas and other BS what they'll never need and stuff they force you to do in school these days. 

In terms of healthcare, I think we need a more integrative approach that would also include nutritional therapy, naturopathic and more complex protocols in the way medics are educated. Less focus on pharmacological intervention and more focus on lifestyle interventions. Over time this would force more research on nutraceuticals and polyphenols and we would gradually see rise in natural pharmacology with more evidence being able to back it up. 

But I think very slowly this is already happening. Young people are more an more interested in health lifestyle, healthy eating and physical activity than their parents and grandparents and there is a great shift of healthier mindset, at least in the developed countries where people can afford to tinker with their life in this way.  The demand for integrative medicine (e.g functional medicine, naturopathic medicine etc is gradually rising) at at some point, medical schools will have to begin to answer to that demand. 

You could probably write a book on this topic and these are just surface-level ideas, the problem of healthcare is infinitely more complex. 

[zurew]

20 minutes ago, Michael569 said:

There are endless attempt to identify the causality factors but it is incredibly hard to pinpoint single things that causes a disease because of the endless variables that are always in play. At the same time, you can't lock humans in some sort of lab experiment, feed them different toxins or other crap and see which groups develop what diseases so we are stuck with epidemiology which despite having an immense value, has its own limitations when it comes to identifying the causative factors although it can be good at extrapolating correlations. 

I've heard some stuff that there are some cases, where you see some impact, but that impact is delayed, so it is impossible to track it back down , where it came from. Even if it wasn't delayed it would be super hard to understand the causality factor in a really complex system, but with the delayation it really seems impossible.

I assume thats party one reason why there is this ingrained "philosophy" in healthcare, to try to treat the symptoms rather than focusing on solving the problem on a root level. The other problem i see as a layman in the system, that there is too much dividedness in the healthcare system. A lot of issue is targeted as if it could be well examined with one specific approach. 

If i have for example a problem with depression it could be because of 100 different things. The most mainstream approach is to go to a therapist. So that therapist try to solve my problem, and he/she can't solve it because it might be because of some dieatary issue. Or it might be the case, that I have depression because of not just my diet, but because tramuas and some other factors as well. It might be the case, that the therapist can solve some parts of the problem, but how could one even know if the psychology part is solved, if the depression problem is still present.

 

36 minutes ago, Michael569 said:

. Less focus on pharmacological intervention and more focus on lifestyle interventions.

Yes this is an interesting dynamic you are pointing out. It could be framed, that more and more people are trying to take more responsibility for their health nowadays compared to the past.

 

38 minutes ago, Michael569 said:

Same way kids should be taught about ecology, environmental protection, kindness for animals as well as financial competence and basics of sexual education instead of being forced to memorise poems, religious texts, literature books and complex math formulas and other BS what they'll never need and stuff they force you to do in school these days. 

I totally agree with this.It would probably take off a significant weight from the shoulders of hospitals and from the shoulders of doctors .

[somegirl]

On 3/14/2022 at 1:19 AM, Federico del pueblo said:

You will find recovery stories/testimonials for the most "incurable" diseases you could think of, including things like multiple sclerosis, Parkinson, Hashimoto, chronic fatigue syndrome, very severe PTSD. In some book I even read about a case where someone suffering from AIDS had a transcendental experience and after that the AIDS regressed back to just HIV.

Could you think of some book/document where I can find such stories, based on true story ofc?

On 3/14/2022 at 1:19 AM, Federico del pueblo said:

Also realise this: As long as medical science hasn't understood how to cure a certain illness this illness will be regarded as incurable. It doesn't matter to medicine whether some people have cured a illness. If medicine can't explain how to cure it, it's incurable, even if people have cured it. It's then just considerd to be a inexplicable spontaneous remission.

Yeah they are very good at curing something that can be seen, or conditions that are monocausal (injuries, operations etc). But I have a deep intuition that medicine and human health is far more broad than that, sometimes even going into unexplainable field. Sometimes we can hear almost magical phenomenon happening, like placebo effect for example. There's just too many factors playing their role and affecting human health. 

If traditional medicine says something is incurable, it's because they use very limited (non-holistic) knowledge they acquired in medical school that is based within scientific paradigm. They surely don't teach things that are unexplainable by the science. They view it as a coincidence.

Edited March 15, 2022 by somegirl

[somegirl]

19 hours ago, aurum said:

The answer has to do with Spirit. The Wim Hof method realigns you with God. Which is why healing occurs. But this is obviously way outside the scientific paradigm, so it has to be talked about purely in terms materialists can understand.

I've heard of him. Though I didn't know Wim Hof method could actually positively affect the condition. They could like literally cure it? 

But yeah it feels true what you say about breathing and realigning with God, therefore healing occurs. 

This is why some people say that when you're feeling bad, it's because you're disconnected with God.  

Edited March 15, 2022 by somegirl

[somegirl]

19 hours ago, mojsterr said:

Anthony William says that the body attacking itself is a myth. The body loves itself, it wants to exist, why would it do such a thing?

I have Hashimoto's, that's how I found out about him. For Hashimoto's he says that in 95% it's Epstein-Barr Virus, which conventional medicine just hasn't figured out yet is the cause. EBV is the cause of many many other diseases, too, he says.

So the body is actually attacking the virus, which is in the thyroid.

So by his interpretation, what is he suggesting then to do about it? Because body attacks that "virus", but it seems like body itself actually suffers. Does he present a solution? 

[somegirl]

16 hours ago, undeather said:

I got involved in this couple of years ago when I met a guy who reversed his neurodegenerative condition with a complexity approach. He suffered from a pretty nasty case of MS (Multiple sclerosis), which would have destroyed his quality of life & cognitive abilites in a matter of months. His neurologists told him that they basically cant do anything to stop it, that this is  his fate and he should learn to deal with it. Long story short - he became an expert in MS, read everything there is to read about it, did some complexitiy medicine testing - supplemented with high doses of certain drugs & vitamins, got rid of the mold exposure in his house and some other toxins - and COMPLETELY reversed his condition

Wow, that's inspirational. This just shows that onr has to be absolutely dedicated to understand what's going on with their body, be attuned with it and listen to it. 

I just get discouraged because there really are SO many factors. So many that I don't onow if you can be aware of all of them. Sometimes they are hidden, but could make a big difference if only you removed it.

 

16 hours ago, undeather said:

There are a lot of cases like these.
Now, that said, - there are a lot of charlatans working in this field. So if you suffer from an autoimmune condition, be careful. Go out there and look for alternative approaches, but dont be naive about it.

Oh absolutely. This is very important to know, not to waste money on people thay don't know whay they're talking about or have some other bad motive, thanks for pointing it out.

[somegirl]

16 hours ago, Michael569 said:

It's not medicine's fault that it cannot "cure" conditions, it is just that the way system is setup where doctors have 5 minutes for a patient and the system is so incredibly overloaded, underfunded and poorly managed (at least where I live) that it is impossible o even consider having an in-depth talk, unless you go private ofcourse. With a patient with autoimmunity, you need to spend 4-5 hours exploring their life, childhood health, teenage heal, life-long diet patterns, stress patterns, habits, chemical exposures, sleep patterns, traumas and stresses of previous generations that have accumulated over the decades. You can' do that in a 5-minute consultation so of course they cannot cure you.

Yes but also it's because traditional doctor operates from scientific paradigm and uses tools that have been proven to work by scientific community, nothing outside of that.

But medicine is far more broad than that. I think it even goes so far into an unknown field that cannot be measured by numbers or any other scientific tools. 

[somegirl]

16 hours ago, Michael569 said:

If you are willing to go deep. The deepest you've ever gone and allow someone to explore absolutely every corner of your health with you and spend 2 years on a radical lifestyle therapy that will include completely transforming the person's life, nutrition, environment, sleep, stress management and probably spending a lot of money doing that and being patient, super openminded and persistent, then you may be able to cure it. 

This is how I envision future medical health care system. But this is the right way to go about it. I don't know do doctors know that for autoimmunity, curing symptoms is not enough. There's a root that should be identified and cured. 

16 hours ago, Michael569 said:

It is a good idea to receive standard medical therapy for symptomatic management and when you get your life back by better symptomatic management, work hard on identifying the root cause, not just settling for meds. Use the meds to give you time energy and the motivation you didn't have when suffering from nasty flare-ups and the find someone who specialises in that particular condition and start looking for the root cause

??? 

[Federico del pueblo]

49 minutes ago, somegirl said:

Could you think of some book/document where I can find such stories, based on true story ofc?

Yes. I'm only gonna name books which I've read from start to finish myself.

1.) You are the placebo - Dr. Joe Dispenza

I love this book. It's one of the most interesting and empowering books I've ever read. 

It's a book that ties together the sciences of epigenetics, psychoneuroimmunology and things like trauma, consciousness and even god (the unified field, the "void" etc.).

It also explains how you can use your mind to intentionally create the placebo effect.

I concretely remember two recovery stories (vaguely). In one there was a person with multiple sclerosis that fully reversed the illness and recovered.

Another person had a illness where the bones become very soft and fragile and she had to sit in a wheelchair (if I remember this correctly), also recovered.

 

2.) Becoming supernatural - Dr. Joe Dispenza

Is the continuation of "you are the placebo". And here things get crazier. This one goes much deeper into consciousness, mysticism, transcendental experiences etc.

The stories in this book blow your mind.

In the first chapter a woman gets PTSD after her husband committed suicide. Then she gets so severely ill with like a dozen of diseases (and I think the immune system did attack her body in some ways), and she recovers from all of it.

But you can also read about people having mystical experiences with some spirits showing up who pull a tumor out of someone's brain, like really crazy stuff, open-mindedness required.

3.) Mind to matter - Dawson Church

Is friends with the prior author.

A lot of stories included, not all about health, some are about synchronicities etc.

This one includes the story about a man reversing his AIDS back to HIV after a transcendental experience.

Other books are "the genie in your genes" (D. Church) and the biology of belief (Dr. Bruce Lipton more science heavy, haven't finished it yet).

So these three guys - Dr. Joe Dispenza, Dawson Church, Bruce Lipton all know each other and have tons of videos on YouTube.

On the website from Dr. Joe Dispenza you can find countless testimonials from people who recovered from anything you could think of - terminal brain cancer, MS, Morbus Chron and illnesses I can't even spell.

One thing to note though:

These guys talk almost only about the mind, trauma, emotions, spirituality, consciousness and how it's all related to health, and neclect the side of nutrition and supplements a little bit (or they just don't focus on it), which of course is also very important.

Oh and a really good introduction is the movie "Heal" by Kelly Noonan. Here all these guys from above talk, but also many more and you can attain a good big picture understanding of what is required to heal in general.

And if you want to research for one specific illness you will eventually find something if you combine terms like e.g. "multiple sclerosis" "recovery story" or "recovered from [xyz]", like just out of curiosity I once googled whether there's anyone who recovered from MS who has a recovery story somewhere and I did find a few.

 

Pillars of recovery:

Doing everything that is known to be healthy ALL at once

- good nutrition + specific supplements

- enough sleep and improving sleep quality

- accepting current energy limits, not doing more than the body can at the moment

- avoiding toxins and detoxification

- support for immune system (by doing all the other things)

- emotional support from others

 

- overcoming emotional trauma (huge...)

- meditation and/or breathing techniques

- relaxation 

(the last three are required to establish balance in the autonomic nervous system, between the parasympathetic and the sympathetic nervous system, which is the prerequisite for pretty much any recovery from any (severe) chronic illness).

- spirituality can be a part of overcoming trauma and improving emotional well-being.

 

As you can see, everything is linked and a holistic approach is usually required.

Edited March 15, 2022 by Federico del pueblo

[Leo Gura]

Of course many people have healed from autoimmune diseases. But it's not guaranteed. There are many kinds of autoimmune diseases with many causes. You have to find and eliminate the root cause. A very common cause is wrong diet. But it's not always that easy. Some causes may be outside your ability to control.

[Ananta]

I was diagnosed with relapsing-remitting M.S. at 21 that continued to progress with at least 2-3 exacerbations per year that lasts weeks at a time before remission. I had to go on long term disability for 10 years. 

The M.S. has reversed and it's in long term remission (they say it can't be cured) by refusing to acknowledge it exists and stopping all my disease modifying injections/medications. I have starved it of attention and only discuss it if giving a medical history or writing the occasional post. I literally don't discuss it otherwise.

For me, I feel my M.S. was triggered by some deep childhood emotional suffering that continued into my 20's AND a viral illness I had at 16 y.o. that made me very ill for about 6 weeks.

See with M.S. they know the symptoms usually don't appear until at least some damage (demylination/lesions) have formed in the brain. They think about 5-10 years prior to the first symptom.

Anyways, after I decided to starve it of attention it slowly, but steadily improved, dramatically over time. I eventually rarely saw the neurologist. However, i went if I needed some low dose steriods or thought I was having an occasional issue. She talked me into getting a comparison brain MRI, since I hadn't had one in about 6 years. 

The outcome was shocking. She said lesions had noticeably shrunken through my brain and although there was a little bit of scattered demylination, it wasn't much, especially since 6 years had gone by. She said she never sees lesions shrinking in M.S. patients, ever.

That was about 8 years ago now, I think. I can't remember, but I haven't gone back to the neurologist since and never had another brain MRI and I haven't had anything but extremely minor, not long lasting symptoms ever since.

I can't explain it. I don't really recommend other ppl to do what I did, but I just knew that's what "I" had to do. It also wasn't diet related at all. My diet was crap then and basically still is.

So, it's 30 years past my diagnosis and although I was told when diagnosed my life expectancy was 25 years with the rate of progression I had with the M.S. Here I am alive, well and able bodied. Go figure. ? ?