If you are the only Mind then why are you talking to others on this forum?

[Gesundheit2]

16 minutes ago, zurew said:

You can dismiss anything even God if you want to

How on earth can anyone dismiss God?! We can dismiss ideas/stories about God, but God itself is not gonna be dismissed.

I read the rest of your post, but I don't think it's appropriate to address it now given this major epistemological error.

[zurew]

3 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

How on earth can anyone dismiss God?!

Depends on the definition of God. You can get caught up on words, and dismiss the rest of the argument,thats all easy. Getting engaged with the content,rather then dismissing the structure, is harder.

Edited March 14, 2022 by zurew

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:

Yes - you know you are putting yourself back to sleep.  That's the difference.   Someone who has never awoken does not know they are are asleep or that they can awaken until they do.  Even when an awakened person goes back to sleep they don't know it in the moment.  But they will awaken again or have that conscious moment where they say oh! Yeah! I was asleep again and this is all a dream ? and then they go back to sleep again.   So it's kinda like waking up over and over again for the rest of your life when you have those moments.  

sleep is being in separation and limitation hypnosis, where you're stuck in conceptual thinking, like, I'm a person, or I'm god, or whatever. awakening is coming out of hypnosis and being what you really are without getting caught in the mental conceptualization, the time frame. it has nothing to do with knowing others have their own experience or not. you see clearly that the others are you, but that is indifferent. the thing is that you are and you perceive it in all the unlimited depth

[Forza21]

@Gili Trawangan

@VeganAwake

@SgtPepper

@WelcometoReality

@Breakingthewall
@Tim R

That's what i was talking about, when i said,  i meet here wonderful people here. <3

i want to sincerely thank ALL of you, from the bottom of my heart. Your each explanation really help me with going through this, and it means word to me. Seriously, you have no idea how much it helps. THANK YOU beautiful souls! <3 <3

 

@Inliytened1 I want to thank you too. I know you're doing your best, but my ego isn't ready for your communication, and im always scared when i see your replies. 

Edited March 14, 2022 by Forza21

[Gesundheit2]

33 minutes ago, zurew said:

definition of God.

Wha?!

[zurew]

4 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

Wha?!

To be extremely clear about it, i didn't mean God but that you can dismiss that you are God, people do it all the time, so there you go. Now you can engage with the arguments that i have made.

Edited March 14, 2022 by zurew

[A Fellow Lighter]

@Inliytened1 but.. okay, so if I am here, and I am God dreaming up this entire reality, then what are you doing?

[Inliytened1]

4 minutes ago, A Fellow Lighter said:

@Inliytened1 but.. okay, so if I am here, and I am God dreaming up this entire reality, then what are you doing?

I don't exist outside of your mind.  

[Gesundheit2]

53 minutes ago, zurew said:

To be extremely clear about it, i didn't mean God but that you can dismiss that you are God, people do it all the time, so there you go. 

Well, that I am God is a story. So yeah, I can dismiss it like any other story.

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Now you can engage with the arguments that i have made.

If you insist.

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If we were to change you brain chemistry radically, your sense of self and your sense of reality could change radically.(You can say here, so God why need to change its brain chemistry to find about itself? - the answer is all this talk and concepts are only needed for our communication. These are just concepts and patterns that are needed as a story to open your finite mind up to other possibilities)

The question is which state you will trust more, and on what basis?

For me, all thoughts are data. No thought is the truth, so I don't really trust any thoughts.

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If you assume right now, that you are really Absolute and God, do you think that using this finite self to understand yourself would be sufficient? Or you might need to change your brain chemistry in such a way where you can expose yourself to infinite consciousness, so that infinite consciousness will become your identity, and the distinction between everything will sees to exist, and also that infinite consciousness, can use its infinite nature, to self-reflect.

Same answer above.

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You can argue, that you don't want to assume that, because you ultimately don't know if it is true or not. However, if you want to entertain some ideas,  to figure things out, then you might need to do some experiment.

After that you can still say, that it might just be a delusion to think about ourselves as God, but again that judgement would be made in this finite state.

Not necessarily a delusion, but perhaps more accurately a story that is highly prone to delusions.

In a way, we can think that we are God, but that will require a definition of God, which is something I don't think is possible. Then again, if we think we aren't God, we still face the same problem in the opposite direction because we are denying a thing that we originally admit but without a definition. So, I think it's best to think of the story of God as a story about God, not God itself.

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Basically, examining anything from this state you can say that others can't say anything in an absolute way, because it is just a belief for them. From your state of consciousness it would be true, however, if you don't want to make yourself subject to this state, then you can play with other states as well, and see what other things are possible.

So the question is, do you want to do some experimentation and discovery? If the answer is yes, the following question is, what state would be more better for God to understand itself better and to discover itself? My answer would be infinite levels of consciousness.

Even for most of your ideas about what possible and what is not possible, is ingrained in this level of human consciousness.

Everything is possible. Or to put it another way, there are no known limits to what's possible.

"Which state is better?" is a tricky question, because we're always asking it from inside a certain state not from the outside/objectively, so any answers by definition will be biased.

Edited March 14, 2022 by Gesundheit2

[Inliytened1]

48 minutes ago, Forza21 said:

 

 

 

 

 

@Inliytened1 I want to thank you too. I know you're doing your best, but my ego isn't ready for your communication, and im always scared when i see your replies. 

All I want for you is to be stable and happy.  Spirituality, though you do go through some tough times - should on the end make you a happier more well balanced person.   But I understand.   Much love to you.  

[WelcometoReality]

3 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

So it's kinda like waking up over and over again for the rest of your life when you have those moments.  

There might also come a point when one becomes fully immersed in the dream and then there will be no one to awaken anymore.

[Inliytened1]

3 minutes ago, WelcometoReality said:

There might also come a point when one becomes fully immersed in the dream and then there will be no one to awaken anymore.

Well when you are immersed in the dream you are cosplaying as a human so you are being the human fully..but you may regularly have a shift in consciousness and say "oh yeah..I'm God!" 

[zurew]

41 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

"Which state is better?" is a tricky question, because we're always asking it from inside a certain state not from the outside/objectively, so any answers by definition will be biased.

Yes, i agree with this to a degree. However, in the "God-state" or whatever we want to call it, there is no one to question anything, you are Absolute. You could argue, that thats another story that is highly prone to delusions.

I think there need to be a method  or a set of methods, that you can accept as granted, to discover something. (this all required for this state).But even if you don't go there, you can ask the question right now, what do you know about yourself, what do you think you actually are? Probably the answer that will pop up in your mind will be that you are a human being etc etc. Lets change your brain chemistry and see how your sense of self will change.

Now, if we are really trying to seem objective, from this subjective experience (thats problematic to pharase it this way, but lets go with it for now), you only know that okay i am something that can examine itself, but i don't really know what i am. If i really radically change my brain chemistry, the very core belief that i am a human being can fade away.Soo, what am i really? So you start to change your states more and more,and then you discover the so called 'God-state'.

In this state it seems like that you are infinite, you are Everything, and you are Absolute. It seems like, that in the God-state you can have a better understanding about the world and about yourself.

I can use a more practical example. If i have a 2d coordinate system and i have 4 points on it, i can make sense of the points but only in a really limited way, because that particular coodinate system is only 2d. But if i were to use a 5-10 or 40d coordinate system (where we use an AI to make sense of some data) and we put that 4 points on that 40 dimensional coordinate system, in that case, i have no chance of understanding the data there, but AI has the ability to use its higher dimensional perspective and ability to make sense of the data. You could argue, thats not whats going on in the real world and framing it this way a little bit silly, i agree, but lets just go with it for a second.

Now in the God case, we can put  our Data on an infinite dimensional coordinate system, and make sense our data that way. It seems much more effective and precise, compared to the 2d coordinate system.

So as we can see, we can look at the same data, and we can make better sense of that data, if we change our perspectives. So my argument would be, that not every perspective is equally correct or true.

Edited March 14, 2022 by zurew

[A Fellow Lighter]

1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:

I don't exist outside of your mind.  

Yes, I understand that. 

The question here is.. if I am here, in the now, and I am God dreaming up everything, then, what exactly is it that you (yes, very much in my mind as you're saying) doing? What is @Inliytened1 doing/occupied with, when I'm doing all the work - imagining things, as you say?

[Gesundheit2]

12 minutes ago, zurew said:

in the "God-state" or whatever we want to call it, there is no one to question anything, you are Absolute.

Okay, suppose that's true (even though technically it's not, because I exist so I am already absolute). The question is: is the inverse true as well? In other words, if I stopped all of my questioning, would that somehow make me Absolute?

12 minutes ago, zurew said:

I think there need to be a method  or a set of methods, that you can accept as granted, to discover something. (this all required for this state).

The moment we start talking about method, we step into the materialistic scientific territory.

12 minutes ago, zurew said:

But even if you don't go there, you can ask the question right now, what do you know about yourself, what do you think you actually are? Probably the answer that will pop up in your mind will be that you are a human being etc etc. Lets change your brain chemistry and see how your sense of self will change.

My answer is I don't know. I don't think I can define myself, even though I sure seem to be living a human life from within the human body, at least for as long as I'm in this realm.

12 minutes ago, zurew said:

Now, if we are really trying to seem objective, from this subjective experience (thats problematic to pharase it this way, but lets go with it for now), you only know that okay i am something that can examine itself, but i don't really know what i am. If i really radically change my brain chemistry, the very core belief that i am a human being can fade away.Soo, what am i really? So you start to change your states more and more,and then you discover the so called 'God-state'.

In this state it seems like that you are infinite, you are Everything, and you are Absolute. It seems like, that in the God-state you can have a better understanding about the world and about yourself.

Or maybe the opposite is the case. Maybe in that state you're just confused and delusional that you misjudge everything and overestimate the state you're in. It is commonly known that being high is associated with poor judgment when viewed from the sober state, so again we fall into the bias fallacy here and unfortunately there's no way to know which state is "truer".

12 minutes ago, zurew said:

I can use a more practical example. If i have a 2d coordinate system and i have 4 points on it, i can make sense of the points but only in a really limited way, because that particular coodinate system is only 2d. But if i were to use a 5-10 or 40d coordinate system (where we use an AI to make sense of some data) and we put that 4 points on that 40 dimensional coordinate system, in that case, i have no chance of understanding the data there, but AI has the ability to use its higher dimensional perspective and ability to make sense of the data. You could argue, thats not whats going on in the real world and framing it this way a little bit silly, i agree, but lets just go with it for a second.

Now in the God case, we can put  our Data on an infinite dimensional coordinate system, and make sense our data that way. It seems much more effective and precise, compared to the 2d coordinate system.

So as we can see, we can look at the same data, and we can make better sense of that data, if we change our perspectives. So my argument would be, that not every perspective is equally correct or true.

Yeah but there's no way to confirm this hypothesis that the God-state is an objectively higher state. There's a 50% chance that it's a lower state, if we're to think of it in terms of hierarchy of truth.

[Loba]

There are other souls; and I appreciate learning new things.

[WelcometoReality]

14 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Well when you are immersed in the dream you are cosplaying as a human so you are being the human fully..but you may regularly have a shift in consciousness and say "oh yeah..I'm God!" 

Yeah I'm just saying that maybe going full circle is losing godhood completely and be fully immersed in the dream. 

Maybe that's what Jesus meant by "God oh God why have you forsaken me".

[Inliytened1]

5 minutes ago, WelcometoReality said:

Yeah I'm just saying that maybe going full circle is losing godhood completely and be fully immersed in the dream. 

Maybe that's what Jesus meant by "God oh God why have you forsaken me".

Ahh...yeah ?

[zurew]

1 hour ago, Gesundheit2 said:

Yeah but there's no way to confirm this hypothesis that the God-state is an objectively higher state. There's a 50% chance that it's a lower state, if we're to think of it in terms of hierarchy of truth.

Maybe there isn't or maybe there is. . But then again, how did u end up with this conclusion, that this problem cannot be solved? You used your human state, and your rational mind, so you trust both of those, instead of the potentially right God-state. You are saying, that you don't know, but at the same time, you trust your rational-mind, and human state to be able to use those in a way where you can make a proper judgement about the God question. I think you could even question logic itself, or questioning itself, could any of those lead us to the Truth? In my opinion or understanding there is 2 way of knowing. The first one is the one where you can rationally understand something, you can reason your way to find some answers for your questions There is the second way of knowing, which we can call intuitive-knowing.

Intuitive-knowing for example, when you argue with someone, and you can clearly see this other person's body-language, his tone of words, his facial expressions and so on. But without contemplating deeply about it, you can instantly know if that person is angry or not, without going through the list i mentioned above. Sort of inutitive knowing is how you use your hand. You don't need to reason you way from all the beginning to be able to grab something you want to. It would be really hard to give a step by step formula for a computer how it can bend its fingers, and in what way, when it needs to bend its fingers, what does bending its fingers even mean and so on.

When you do a psychedelic trip, or when you get some insights from doing yoga or meditation,it seems like you are getting those insights from intuitive knowing. You know something, you feel that you are knowing something deeply, but you not necessarily can reason your way to the consclusion, what you gathered from a trip. 

You could argue, that there are some cases, where this 'intuitive-knowing' looks like it gives you incorrect insights. It might, or it might be the case, that you are getting correct knowledge, but your rational mind can't know how to handle it.

I think it could be beneficial to sometimes make this distinction between the two way of knowing. Now you can freely decide what you want to make of this, or which one you want to use more, or to trust more.

Edited March 14, 2022 by zurew

[gettoefl]

16 minutes ago, WelcometoReality said:

Yeah I'm just saying that maybe going full circle is losing godhood completely and be fully immersed in the dream. 

Maybe that's what Jesus meant by "God oh God why have you forsaken me".

when true self becomes no self, god dies too ... or rather experience of god ... god is not experience ... it is beyond duality