Noam Chomsky: A No-Fly Zone Over Ukraine Could Unleash Untold Violence

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, How to be wise said:

@Leo Gura It’s hard to believe that Putin actually thought he could end this in days. It makes you wonder what planet he’s on.

How do we know he thought it would end in days?

But yes, the decision to invade the whole of Ukraine seems absurd. Not sure what he was thinking. It would be interesting to know his actual thought process. I don't see how he benefits from this.

[How to be wise]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

How do we know he thought it would end in days?

Military analysts have said that the Russian army were not prepared for a war. They were under the delusion that it would be a quick operation that would not include any major battles. It explains their shortage of supplies and low morale.

[axiom]

@hello1234 I know someone in Ukraine who fights with the Azov Battalion. He doesn't recognise it as a far right movement. His mother wishes he would come to his senses.

When Andriy Parubiy was made chairman of the Verkhovna Rada in 2016, those looking on from other European nations were shocked.

Most Americans would laugh at the idea that Obama/Biden administration bombed hospitals. And yet in 2015, 42 people died and over 30 were injured when an AC-130U gunship blasted the Kunduz trauma centre in Afghanistan. 

The average American would also be oblivious to the US-funding of the Saudi Coalition still bombing the hell out of Yemen. Yet 377,000 people have been killed there so far, 70% of whom were children. 

Anti-semitism is a major problem in the UK. Most people here would laugh at that suggestion, too. But there is now too much evidence to ignore it.

People and moreover nations cannot smell themselves. Things become normalised. Outside perspective is essential. This applies to all nations, including Ukraine.

Yes, Neo Nazism in Ukraine is overstated by Putin. It does not justify this invasion in any case. 

In spite of one's best intentions, propaganda is impossible to avoid entirely. This is all the more the case in today's world where so much of the media has been co-opted by competing national and international interests.

Edited March 12, 2022 by axiom

[Hardkill]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

How do we know he thought it would end in days?

But yes, the decision to invade the whole of Ukraine seems absurd. Not sure what he was thinking. It would be interesting to know his actual thought process. I don't see how he benefits from this.

Putin says that the sanctions on him will make Russia stronger. 

[PurpleTree]

40 minutes ago, axiom said:

 Anti-semitism is a major problem in the UK. Most people here would laugh at that suggestion, too. But there is now too much evidence to ignore it.

a lot of it probably coming from muslim immigrants (which the left doesn't want to see or talk about)

obviously also a lot coming from far right white brits etc. 

and also maybe from leftists who are very pro palestine

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, How to be wise said:

Military analysts have said that the Russian army were not prepared for a war. They were under the delusion that it would be a quick operation that would not include any major battles. It explains their shortage of supplies and low morale.

Western military analysts?

I don't trust them to look at the situation without some serious bias. A lot of stuff is being assumed but reported as fact.

[How to be wise]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Western military analysts?

College professors

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, How to be wise said:

College professors

How do they know what Putin or Russian command was thinking?

Seems like a lot of speculation with an obvious Western bias.

[How to be wise]

@Leo Gura

 

[Lyubov]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

How do they know what Putin or Russian command was thinking?

Seems like a lot of speculation with an obvious Western bias.

Because no rational or intelligent military strategist would of put their military into a position that Russia currently has theirs in under the circumstances they were in. It’s like moving your king in front of your pawns. People who know chess will instantly spot the blunders and know there are systemic problems on Russia’s side, even if they don’t know all the details and the exact inside story. It’s just such a complete blunder that it exposes all the issues in Russia’s autocratic power structure. Putin has filled his regime with imbeciles so no one was ever clever enough to overthrow him. His defense minister is a construction foreman. In turn this has lead to it hurting the synergy, progress and development of the government. Top down autocratic power structures have their pluses and minuses as well as their Achilles’ heel when it comes to their survival and this is such a situation that’s exposed a lot of this. I wouldn’t be surprised if Putin was being fed all sorts of bullshit about how modern his military is then not taking into account all the corruption going on bellow him. No one knows exactly what’s going on in the kremlin but this has clearly exposed they have some serious problems coming from the top down. 

Edited March 13, 2022 by Lyubov

[Arcangelo]

No fly zone = WW3

 

[Arcangelo]

15 hours ago, axiom said:

it cannot be disputed that there has been, and there remains, a Nazi and latterly Neo-Nazi problem in Ukraine

 

Hmmm...

 

 

 

 

Edited March 13, 2022 by Arcangelo

[hello1234]

12 hours ago, axiom said:

@hello1234 I know someone in Ukraine who fights with the Azov Battalion. He doesn't recognise it as a far right movement. His mother wishes he would come to his senses.

When Andriy Parubiy was made chairman of the Verkhovna Rada in 2016, those looking on from other European nations were shocked.

Most Americans would laugh at the idea that Obama/Biden administration bombed hospitals. And yet in 2015, 42 people died and over 30 were injured when an AC-130U gunship blasted the Kunduz trauma centre in Afghanistan. 

The average American would also be oblivious to the US-funding of the Saudi Coalition still bombing the hell out of Yemen. Yet 377,000 people have been killed there so far, 70% of whom were children. 

Anti-semitism is a major problem in the UK. Most people here would laugh at that suggestion, too. But there is now too much evidence to ignore it.

People and moreover nations cannot smell themselves. Things become normalised. Outside perspective is essential. This applies to all nations, including Ukraine.

Yes, Neo Nazism in Ukraine is overstated by Putin. It does not justify this invasion in any case. 

In spite of one's best intentions, propaganda is impossible to avoid entirely. This is all the more the case in today's world where so much of the media has been co-opted by competing national and international interests.

Again, you are missing a ton of understanding here. The major one being how you view Ukrainian nationalism.

Modern day nationalism in the West and even in Russia is more of a “my country is the best, everyone else sucks” kind of nationalism (to put it in very simple terms) vs in Ukraine the nationalism is more of “leave me alone, I don’t want anything that’s yours, I just want what’s mine, let me have my culture, let me have my independence, stop corrupting my government, stop robbing my people, people wake up, start doing something for your country” and it’s been like that for years and centuries.

You wouldn’t go and call natives “nationalists”, in a negative way, there is a reason the world encourages and wants them to keep their culture, given their painful history.

One thing that Ukraine never got from the world, is recognition of Ukraine’s painful history. Stalin was worse than Hitler in terms of the number of people he killed. Ukrainian genocide in 1932 that killed from 4-8 million Ukrainians by starvation, over a period of 1 year, with some estimates going up to 10 million, is till this day, denied by Russia, and barely known to the world. For comparison, Nazi Germany killed around 6 million Jewish people. The Jewish people did get recognition and sympathy from the world though.

If you’re interested, I made a post about some points of Ukrainian history a few days ago.

Edited March 13, 2022 by hello1234

[hello1234]

15 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Have you never seen street interviews of average Americans? They are idiots. They couldn't tell who the vice president it.

Shhh.. there, there.. America is the most stupid country, and it’s the greatest villain too.. there, there…

There are other countries in the world other than America and Russia. I was mostly talking from the Ukrainian frame of reference, at least where I’m from, average people are pretty involved in politics and everyone is very skeptical. Even when “good things” happen the first reaction is thinking about “what’s the catch”. Ukrainians don’t have the luxury to trust their government, and because they are not living in a bubble, they know that something is very off and they know things should be better.  

[vladorion]

2 minutes ago, hello1234 said:

Shhh.. there, there.. America is the most stupid country, and it’s the greatest villain too.. there, there…

There are other countries in the world other than America and Russia. I was mostly talking from the Ukrainian frame of reference, at least where I’m from, average people are pretty involved in politics and everyone is very skeptical. Even when “good things” happen the first reaction is thinking about “what’s the catch”. Ukrainians don’t have the luxury to trust their government, and because they are not living in a bubble, they know that something is very off and they know things should be better.  

Ok, Russians bad, Ukrainians good. Russians stupid, Ukrainians smart. I think we all got this by now.

[hello1234]

1 minute ago, vladorion said:

Ok, Russians bad, Ukrainians good. Russians stupid, Ukrainians smart. I think we all got this by now.

Lol, putting you on ignore. 

[vladorion]

36 minutes ago, hello1234 said:

Lol, putting you on ignore. 

Did that make you feel exposed?

[hello1234]

2 minutes ago, vladorion said:

Did that make you feel exposed?

No, I just think you’re a lost cause and I should’ve blocked you earlier.

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, Lyubov said:

Because no rational or intelligent military strategist would of put their military into a position that Russia currently has theirs in under the circumstances they were in. It’s like moving your king in front of your pawns. People who know chess will instantly spot the blunders and know there are systemic problems on Russia’s side, even if they don’t know all the details and the exact inside story. It’s just such a complete blunder...

It's not some elegant game they are playing, but Russia seems like they will beat Ukraine.

To the contrary, Russia is losing some pawns while protecting its king. Meanwhile Ukraine's king will probably get his head cut off.

Putin doesn't need to play a flawless or beautiful game. All he has to do is bomb cities, which is easy.

He's taking a blunt approach.

[vladorion]

1 hour ago, hello1234 said:

No, I just think you’re a lost cause and I should’ve blocked you earlier.

Maybe you should've.

The more people you block who are a lost cause, the better you'll feel about your belief system.