Difference between enlightenment solipsism & 'normie' solipsism

[mandyjw]

@Tim R I did see your rant, it seems you're as frustrated as the rest of us with their hierarchical claiming of what cannot be grasped or claimed by anyone, but I dunno maybe I'm projecting. 

4 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

If no one has a mind.. who is this 'hugely problematic' for?

Well... for people who think they are and are suffering. 

[Mason Riggle]

1 minute ago, mandyjw said:

Well... for people who think they are and are suffering. 

you mean.. people with minds? 

[mandyjw]

@Mason Riggle If I think "I'm alone in the Universe". "My mom/wife/brother/whatever is not real". My emotions are immediately, directly saying "FUCK NO!" and I'm like "NO but I've BEEN TOLD BY THE WISE MASTER that I'm alone in the universe. I'm intelligent! I'm woke! I'm not a normie!" I'm not listening to my emotions. 

So I suffer.

Suffer.

Suffer.

"I'm gonna get it! I'm gonna push through this wall!" 

Nope. You aren't. That wall just isn't there. 

[Tim R]

9 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

it seems you're as frustrated as the rest of us with their hierarchical claiming of what cannot be grasped or claimed by anyone

Not sure what you mean by the "hierarchical claiming of what can't be grasped". Do you mean this in the sense of "higher / lower consciousness"? Or more like spiritual one-upmanship?

I'm frustrated with the way these issues are treated here, which is causing a lot of problems for a lot of people, the main one obviously being solipsism. There's too much immaturity here and I don't know if it's the demographics of the Youtube or what, but immaturity, egoism, spirituality and strong psychedelics are just not a good combination. 

[mandyjw]

This is the numbest, dumbest realization out there. Nothing changes. There already aren't other people. 

Put your hand on a surface. Without thinking is there two sensations, one of "my" hand and one of "the surface". Or is it in the direct feeling ONE borderless sensation.

Likewise Love is just plain borderless. This has always been. Always will be. 
 

You don't go around denying the existence or validity of people. Maybe you see them for the first time, your heart bursts open and you can't stop crying about how fucking beautiful the previously fat bitchy post office lady suddenly is seen to be, but other than kinda thing day in day out everyday,  no big deal! 

Jesus people. 

It's that fucking simple. 

Everybody love everybody! -Will Ferrell

"Love one another" - Jesus

There ya go. 

 

[Mason Riggle]

21 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

 No one has a mind. 

@mandyjw how could anyone think anything if no one has a mind?

[mandyjw]

1 minute ago, Tim R said:

Not sure what you mean by the "hierarchical claiming of what can't be grasped". Do you mean this in the sense of "higher / lower consciousness"? Or more like spiritual one-upmanship?

I'm frustrated with the way these issues are treated here, which is causing a lot of problems for a lot of people, the main one obviously being solipsism. There's too much immaturity here and I don't know if it's the demographics of the Youtube or what, but immaturity, egoism, spirituality and strong psychedelics are just not a good combination. 

It's not really immaturity, I don't think. It's being modeled by the creator of this community.

Just now, Mason Riggle said:

@mandyjw how could anyone think anything if no one has a mind?

I don't think anything. Thought is appearance. Doesn't mean there's actually water in the desert, but the appearance or illusion has a reality unto itself. Call it Magic. Uh oh it's magic, ya know!  Actually I don't know that. What I actually am is so magic, I'm prior to the idea of magic/ordinary or any ideas or thoughts. 

Separate Mandy, seperate Mason is a thought. I cannot think mySelf. This conversation as an exchange between us is love, magic, nothing at all really. It's the same as the sensation of my placing my hand on my chair, it is not two. 

 

[Mason Riggle]

1 minute ago, mandyjw said:

 

Separate Mandy, seperate Mason is a thought.

 

Exactly... so who is [this way of discussing Solipsism] hugely problematic for? 

[Inliytened1]

53 minutes ago, Tim R said:

Wouldn't be so sure about that.

In fact, let me rant a little bit here.

I would bet my left nut that there are more people here on the forum and in Leo's following who think they're awakened, but are actually delusional solipsists who believe their finite mind to be the whole of reality because their un-integrated spiritual ego has totally corrupted the mechanism by which they sought/seek Truth, namely what they perceived to be "direct experience", but which, because of the corruption, is not at all direct experience, but a perception of reality filtered and (mis-)interpreted through the finite ego-mind (I've talked about this extensively yeterday in Someone Here's post) that then proceeded to inflate itself and latch itself onto "experience".

That's what I honestly believe and I feel very sorry for all the people (and yes, there are no other people), who, like myself, had (and some still have to, some will have to) go through this absolute hell of solipsism because

a) they weren't ready for it (not yet sufficiently integrated), thus their mind/ego corrupted what was supposed to be insight into the nature of No-Self & nonduality

b) the use of language is absolutely crucial, and on this forum, a lot of people just don't give a f*ck about how they comunicate these dangerously powerful ideas to others, with Leo leading the way (although I think he's working on that, so props where props are due) and people parroting him, because they think it sounds cool and awake.

If it's a "tough pill" for you to swallow, then sorry, you're still missing something. A tough pill to swallow is probably a sign that, yes, you got something right, but in a wrong way. And if you're lonely, you're not awake either. We're all alone together.

No f*cking wonder that big spiritual egos would dismiss the importance of no-self.

Rant over. 

Look I totally get it.  This is very advanced stuff and the use of language properly is paramount.   It's why perhaps there should be stricter guidelines here on what material is openly discussed because this place can screw someone up just as easily as the video he pulled down if they aren't ready to hear it or misinterpret. 

I try to clarify that the nature of reality is not about the finite mind being all there is.  It is about the Infinite Mind.  Where people get co fused is again, with the Wikipedia definition of solipsism- which is why I don't even think the word should be used - even if we say Absolute Solipsism or Solipsism as God it serms to still confuse people.  Here we do not mean the finite self.  Here we mean your Mind - your Infinite Mind - is all there is.  And yes I said You - but when I say that I am using an expanded definition of thr word you - not you as a human.  You as God.   This is where language reveals its limitations.   But this is how it must be, for Truth is prior to language and can't be grasped with language.

I sympathize if people have gotten confused by the teachings but I am doing my best here to speak as clearly as possible about the nature of reality.   You do not know for sure whether or not @Someone here had an awakening or not.  Only he knows that.  You believe he didn't- but you could be wrong.

And the fact remains that you are alone as God.  Never did i say that meant i am lonely or that there was a negative connotation to this.  It is more of a shocking recontexualization which does require time to integrate.  But it is the ultimate liberation because when you have this awakening you realize you are God. 

We all need to put our heads together and see what we can do to ensure we provide clear teachings here in the future- and if it means shutting down the forum then perhaps that's what needs to happen and then Leo can restructure his teachings to be more controlled..where people will not have access to the enlightenment material unless they are proven to be ready and are mentally stable.   I agree 100 % that the no-self realization is where one needs to start- it was my first awakening and to me it's really what enlightenment is - even though there are more awakenings to have.  It should not be dismissed as unimportant it is probably the biggest one you can have.   But a realization of no self is also dangerous because it gets into true spirituality.   As you said, you die.  When you come back it is not a guarantee that you will be mentally stable afterwards.  Let alone the deeper realizations that come later with realizing there are no other minds. 

So yes I agree with you and I'm not sure how we address this problem to be frank.   It is ultimately Leo's house but if wants our help I am available to discuss with him and the other staff including yourself of course.

[mandyjw]

@Mason Riggle If I make a youtube video and tell people that Love is not directly known, but that God is Love and love is a thing that can be grasped for a separate finite self is that problematic? Cause I'd say that's problematic. 

I mean I might sit here and have no problem inwardly, no suffering, but I'm still gonna call a repair man if my refrigerator breaks instead of letting the food spoil and make my kids sick, you know? 

[Mason Riggle]

@mandyjw I don't think you can make a youtube video.. there is no 'separate Mandy' to do it. 

[mandyjw]

1 minute ago, Inliytened1 said:

This is very advanced stuff

No. It is NOT advanced.

It's so fucking humbling there won't be a you left to be humbled. And it feels better than ANYTHING, because it IS feeling itself. Direct, so direct we can't even say it's direct. 

No advancement. No one left behind. 

 

[mandyjw]

@Mason Riggle That is ultimately true. Not arguing. 

You see the difference when listening to feeling, which responds not at all to thought like, "Mandy made a youtube video". "I like apples." And then there is Mandy thinking that she is super in charge of everything and has to become this great example of whatever the fuck to prove her worth on the actualize.org forum and stressing out over how high consciousness her stuff is and what others think of it. That's the suffering, that's the actual sense of separation. 

 

[Inliytened1]

6 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

No. It is NOT advanced.

It's so fucking humbling there won't be a you left to be humbled. And it feels better than ANYTHING, because it IS feeling itself. Direct, so direct we can't even say it's direct. 

No advancement. No one left behind. 

 

Not everyone is ready to hear or understand it.  So yes it is advanced.  

[Tim R]

1 minute ago, Inliytened1 said:

Where people get co fused is again, with the Wikipedia definition of solipsism- which is why I don't even think the word should be used - even if we say Absolute Solipsism or Solipsism as God it serms to still confuse people.

Yes. Solipsism simply is not a good word - and even saying things like "your mind is all there is, this bubble is god", even that is extremely confusing and leads to "normie" solipsism because most people here are in it for the mental masturbation & the spiritual ego it gives them,  there, I said it (again). 

4 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Here we do not mean the finite self.  Here we mean your Mind - your Infinite Mind - is all there is. 

See the problem is this: to most people, it doesn't matter what you mean. They hear you or Leo say "your mind is all there is".

Someone who knows themself to be God doesn't need these videos, and someone who doesn't know themself to be God will not know what you mean anyway at best and at worst, get confused and depressed into oblivion.

6 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

 You do not know for sure whether or not @Someone here had an awakening or not.  Only he knows that.  You believe he didn't- but you could be wrong.

I wasn't talking about him or anybody else. I don't know what he did or did not realize, but he's well known on this forum to engage in endless mental gymnastics and when he suddenly makes a post about how he realized himself as God from religiously wathcing a video three times on solipsism, it's probably a good idea to dig a little bit, don't you think? 

9 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Never did i say that meant i am lonely or that there was a negative connotation to this. 

I wasn't talking about you either but there are more than enough people who are lonely or feel like going  insane because of solipsism.

[Mason Riggle]

@mandyjw don't stress it.  There's nothing to do. no one to do it. And there are no problems.  It just seems that way... which isn't a problem. 

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by Mason Riggle

[Forza21]

8 minutes ago, Tim R said:

 

I wasn't talking about you either but there are more than enough people who are lonely or feel like going  insane because of solipsism.

This is 100% true.

Please, seriously consider changes in this forum narration.

I've been in hell because of solipsism.  It's not that I blame anyone here, in fact, it's otherwise. I'm so grateful for all beautiful souls here, who helped me, when i was at the edge of suicide.  Now i can see clearly how my ego-mind corrupted this idea, and it turned out great, but i sympathize with all the people who might go through this.  And they are many, when you look on the main forum board... 

Edited March 11, 2022 by Forza21

[mandyjw]

10 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Not everyone is ready to hear or understand it.  

That's true that not everyone is asking the same questions, but I don't think it benefits anyone to call it advanced. I think that feeds into people making drastic efforts to get what they think is missing. A question is the admission or knowledge (beyond knowledge) that one does not know. But we ask different questions, ultimately coming from the same not knowing. The answer received is more satisfying than intellectual understanding. 

The same paradigm of advancement in spirituality like advancement in knowledge through credits in a college by a person over time to gain a degree does not apply. It's like building a house upon the sand to think of it and feel that way about it. 

Edited March 11, 2022 by mandyjw

[Mason Riggle]

@mandyjw and whoever else cares to read along,

If I were to have a dream tonight about a friend who is deeply troubled with the idea of Solipsism, and in my dream this troubles me.. 

When I awaken to the fact that it was 'all a dream', I discover that the 'me who was suffering over my Solipsist friend's suffering' wasn't the problem it seemed to be. 

Edited March 11, 2022 by Mason Riggle

[Inliytened1]

8 minutes ago, Forza21 said:

This is 100% true.

Please, seriously consider changes in this forum narration.

I've been in hell because of solipsism.  It's not that I blame anyone here, in fact, it's otherwise. I'm so grateful for all beautiful souls here, who helped me, when i was at the edge of suicide.  Now i can see clearly how my ego-mind corrupted this idea, and it turned out great, but i sympathize with all the people who might go through this.  And they are many, when you look on the main forum board... 

And I know first hand your not the only one.  There is another young man that @Nahm and I have been talking with over the past few years to get him stable.   He is now but this stuff screwed him up because he was nowhere near ready.