Difference between enlightenment solipsism & 'normie' solipsism

[Mips]

As per the title. Solipsism as a distressing aspect mental illness, often in tandem with other symptoms is quite common - in fact both my wife & daughter have gone through this. I've seen this described as 'normie' solipsism. My daughter, 15 at the time, went through hell with this.

What's the difference between this and the solipsism experienced with awakening? 

[Tim R]

In enlightenment, you're dead. There's no you left. You have realized that you are nothing, and everything is nothing.

And don't let people fool you when they hear someone say "there's no you" and then they immediately reply "yes, you do exist!! you are everything!!"

Well I got news for you: yes, you are everything. But in many of these cases, that "everything" can very well be a projection of ego onto a "larger" self, which is the case in normal solipsism.

It's a case of "inflation", where the ego simply latches on to the finite mind and then claims it & itself (it projects itself onto the whole of finite experience) to be God as in "finite consciousness is everything there is".

No-Self is probably the central insight - and of course, No-self has many "aspects" to it, like Love, Infinity, Everything...

If Infinity doesn't mean "No-Self", then it's not Infinity and not enlightenment. Infinity simply means "no boundaries". It doesn't (just) mean "all possible experiences at once" (there are no "all possible experiences", strictly speaking), which is what some poeple believe the word to mean. Consciousness (you) are infinite as in: you have no boundaries and no limits, in no dimension. That's where the whole omnipotence / omnipresence stuff comes from, and of course, it's true. Consciousness is omnipresent (or as Shunyamurti says: "omnicentral"). 

Same goes for Love; No-Self = Love 

So yeah. Solipsism is based on a self. And this self can assume vast dimensions and make claims like "I am God" without actually knowing God, but instead just projecting itself onto finite experience and thereby claiming that to be everything there is (I am everything, as this finite "bubble", this is all there is). It's a highly dualistic doctrine.

Enlightenment = No-Self, which is the same as God - and if No-Self isn't emphasized by  whoever claims to know God, I'd be very suspicious...

No-Self = No boundaries (Infinity), no finite "bubble", no "figments of imagination", no "POV", none of that. 

Also, No-Self = no problem. So there's no "though pill to swallow". So long as there is, you're missing something... Missing something!!, not "got something wrong". You might got things right, but only partially, hence the feeling of "having to face the Truth". Which inevitably will be the case, almost nobody gets all of it in one fell swoop, so keep going until there's neither you nor problems left. You ARE the Truth, there's nothing for you to face.

[nistake]

I guess this whole solipsism issue boils down to what you identify with:

A) Relative domain/ego -> This can be a huge trap. Beliving that my separate self or POV is the only thing in existence and other people are just figments of my imagination. Actually a belief which has the power to drive you insane.

B) Absolute/God -> Well, this is the truth. Can't really be conceptualized and highly paradoxical. Nahm summarized it perfectly by saying "We're all alone together".

[Breakingthewall]

45 minutes ago, Tim R said:

Enlightenment = No-Self, which is the same as God

agree. For me it is:there is the limitless void where there is nothing, neither me, so there is no loneliness. I am not "the only one there is" I am something unfathomable where there is no kind of loneliness because I am not here to be alone. emptiness that is joy without limit, potentiality without limit, but something, not someone. So i don't understand the solipsism, seems an ego projection. 

[Forza21]

3 hours ago, Tim R said:

In enlightenment, you're dead. There's no you left. You have realized that you are nothing, and everything is nothing.

And don't let people fool you when they hear someone say "there's no you" and then they immediately reply "yes, you do exist!! you are everything!!"

Well I got news for you: yes, you are everything. But in many of these cases, that "everything" can very well be a projection of ego onto a "larger" self, which is the case in normal solipsism.

It's a case of "inflation", where the ego simply latches on to the finite mind and then claims it & itself (it projects itself onto the whole of finite experience) to be God as in "finite consciousness is everything there is".

No-Self is probably the central insight - and of course, No-self has many "aspects" to it, like Love, Infinity, Everything...

If Infinity doesn't mean "No-Self", then it's not Infinity and not enlightenment. Infinity simply means "no boundaries". It doesn't (just) mean "all possible experiences at once" (there are no "all possible experiences", strictly speaking), which is what some poeple believe the word to mean. Consciousness (you) are infinite as in: you have no boundaries and no limits, in no dimension. That's where the whole omnipotence / omnipresence stuff comes from, and of course, it's true. Consciousness is omnipresent (or as Shunyamurti says: "omnicentral"). 

Same goes for Love; No-Self = Love 

So yeah. Solipsism is based on a self. And this self can assume vast dimensions and make claims like "I am God" without actually knowing God, but instead just projecting itself onto finite experience and thereby claiming that to be everything there is (I am everything, as this finite "bubble", this is all there is). It's a highly dualistic doctrine.

Enlightenment = No-Self, which is the same as God - and if No-Self isn't emphasized by  whoever claims to know God, I'd be very suspicious...

No-Self = No boundaries (Infinity), no finite "bubble", no "figments of imagination", no "POV", none of that. 

Also, No-Self = no problem. So there's no "though pill to swallow". So long as there is, you're missing something... Missing something!!, not "got something wrong". You might got things right, but only partially, hence the feeling of "having to face the Truth". Which inevitably will be the case, almost nobody gets all of it in one fell swoop, so keep going until there's neither you nor problems left. You ARE the Truth, there's nothing for you to face.

Thank you once again, Tim. Your explanation really got me. 

if think it's soooo easy for ego to corrupt this idea, on this forum, when all people see is : You are the only one. You are God. There's nothing outside you." etc. 

It's sloppy language which drives people insane,  people should be aware of this.

 

3 hours ago, nistake said:

I guess this whole solipsism issue boils down to what you identify with:

A) Relative domain/ego -> This can be a huge trap. Beliving that my separate self or POV is the only thing in existence and other people are just figments of my imagination. Actually a belief which has the power to drive you insane.

B) Absolute/God -> Well, this is the truth. Can't really be conceptualized and highly paradoxical. Nahm summarized it perfectly by saying "We're all alone together".

Yes.

Nr 1, actually drove me insane.I  got over it, but it's hell-of-a-trap. I think there should be more disclaimers, about that you actually need to experience no-self,  and then stepping into God realization...  Nahm was doing a very good job in that  now it's only "You are God" thing, and most people aren't that advanced.

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

agree. For me it is:there is the limitless void where there is nothing, neither me, so there is no loneliness. I am not "the only one there is" I am something unfathomable where there is no kind of loneliness because I am not here to be alone. emptiness that is joy without limit, potentiality without limit, but something, not someone. So i don't understand the solipsism, seems an ego projection. 

yes, seeing it as you describe, I don't understand it either. And this forum narrative goes 90% about that  

Edited March 11, 2022 by Forza21

[Inliytened1]

3 hours ago, Tim R said:

 

No-Self is probably the central insight - and of course, No-self has many "aspects" to it, like Love, Infinity, Everything...

 

It is.  But Infinity is a separate awakening.  as for Love, you will drown in it with all your awakenings.  The distinct insight that God is Love almost isn't necessary because you drown in it.  So yes I agree here although Leo may disagree and say Love is a completely separate awakening.  For me it was part of all my awakenings.

3 hours ago, Tim R said:

I

 

So yeah. Solipsism is based on a self. And this self can assume vast dimensions and make claims like "I am God" without actually knowing God, but instead just projecting itself onto finite experience and thereby claiming that to be everything there is (I am everything, as this finite "bubble", this is all there is). It's a highly dualistic doctrine.

 

Traditional solipsism is based on the small ego self yes   - the definition used in Wikipedia, yes.  But here we are talking about Absolute Solipsism or Solipsism as God as I call it.

[Gili Trawangan]

19 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Traditional solipsism is based on the small ego self yes   - the definition used in Wikipedia, yes.  But here we are talking about Absolute Solipsism or Solipsism as God as I call it.

Same thing.

God is NOT a self. Solipsism as God or absolute solipsism is nonsensical and terribly misleading.

That's why the ancients called it non-duality. Not two. They were extremely careful not to call it "one", because one is easily turned into an object by the mind - a self - and leads to thoughts like solipsism.

It should be obvious by now that the way truth is being communicated around here is causing more trouble than helping. And people are doubling down on it.

@Tim R that's a fantastic post and it should be a sticky.

[Inliytened1]

4 minutes ago, Gili Trawangan said:

Same thing.

God is NOT a self. Solipsism as God or absolute solipsism is nonsensical and terribly misleading.

It is not the same thing.  Where did I say God is a self?  God is Infinity.   You cay Self with capital S.  That does not mean what you think it means so yes that terminology can be misleading.  Language in general is very prone to misunderstanding which makes things like spirituality especially tricky to convey. 

[Forza21]

Just now, Inliytened1 said:

Where did I say God is a self?  God is Infinity.   You cay Self with capital S.  That does not mean what you think it means so yes that terminology can be misleading.  Language in general is very prone to misunderstanding which makes things like spirituality especially tricky to convey. 

Maybe, on the forum, there should be some explanation post ( the one Tim wrote is great!) attached? 

i think it could really solve 90% of solipsism misunderstanding and topics. Instead of closing it down, there should be more explanation done.  Especially about danger of sloppy language.

 

4 minutes ago, Gili Trawangan said:

Same thing.

God is NOT a self. Solipsism as God or absolute solipsism is nonsensical and terribly misleading.

That's why the ancients called it non-duality. Not two. They were extremely careful not to call it "one", because one is easily turned into an object by the mind - a self - and leads to thoughts like solipsism.

It should be obvious by now that the way truth is being communicated around here is causing more trouble than helping. And people are doubling down on it.

@Tim R that's a fantastic post and it should be a sticky.

Thank you once again for help!  love!

[Gili Trawangan]

1 minute ago, Inliytened1 said:

Where did I say God is a self?

It's implied. "Solipsism as God", that's what it implies.

2 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Language in general is very prone to misunderstanding which makes things like spirituality especially tricky to convey.

I'm glad you're aware of this. In that case, why use a word which is CLEARLY causing a lot of confusion? I'm talking about solipsism. People are even writing suicidal posts around here, scared that they are all alone.

Notice that this word only started to infest the forum because Leo used it. And pretty soon everyone started to use it. It's like a virus around here, why contribute to the spreading of it?

[Inliytened1]

2 minutes ago, Forza21 said:

i think it could really solve 90% of solipsism misunderstanding and topics. Instead of closing it down, there should be more explanation done.  Especially about danger of sloppy language.

 

That's what I'm trying to do here.  Im not talking of the finite mind being all there is.  I'm talking about God's mind being all there is.

[Inliytened1]

7 minutes ago, Gili Trawangan said:

It's implied. "Solipsism as God", that's what it implies.

I'm glad you're aware of this. In that case, why use a word which is CLEARLY causing a lot of confusion? I'm talking about solipsism. People are even writing suicidal posts around here, scared that they are all alone.

Notice that this word only started to infest the forum because Leo used it. And pretty soon everyone started to use it. It's like a virus around here, why contribute to the spreading of it?

As long as the distinction is made that we are not talking about the finite mind or ego self I see no issues with it.  It helped @Someone here ti awaken and he had no problems understanding the difference between Wikipedias definition and what we teach here.  But ive never felt the need to use the term myself.  When you awaken you dont say "oh damn - its solipsism!". No..you just become conscious that you are the only game in town

 

[Gili Trawangan]

2 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

As long as the distinction is made that we are not talking about the finite mind or ego self I see no issues with it.  It helped @Someone here ti awaken and he had no problems understanding the difference between Wikipedias definition and what we teach here.  But ive never felt the need to use the term myself.  When you awaken you dont say "oh damn - its solipsism!". No..you just become conscious that you are the only game in town

 

That user has not awoken.

It's a clear example of the ego co-opting whatever experience happened and claiming to be God. Riddled with concepts and ideas, a parroting of Leo's words, verbatim. It's clear as day.

It's a perfect example of how poorly truth is being communicated here.

[Inliytened1]

12 minutes ago, Gili Trawangan said:

 

It's a perfect example of how poorly truth is being communicated here.

I'm perfectly OK with never using the term again perhaps it's a discussion to be had among the mods.    It does seem to be causing more confusion than anything else.

[Breakingthewall]

55 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

That's what I'm trying to do here.  Im not talking of the finite mind being all there is.  I'm talking about God's mind being all there is.

4 hours ago, Tim R said:

 

sorry for repeating it 10 times, but that's not the solipism leo is talking about. he says that your current bubble of perception is the only reality that exists and that there are no others. I think it's important to be clear. You may or may not agree, but he does not say that the mind of God is the only one and that all other minds are illusion. That's what all the masters of non-duality say. He says that the cosmos is the screen I'm looking at and nothing else exists. and he also says that the deeper he goes, he finds an almost unbearable loneliness.

[Mason Riggle]

8 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

sorry for repeating it 10 times, but that's not the solipism leo is talking about. he says that your current bubble of perception is the only reality that exists and that there are no others. I think it's important to be clear. You may or may not agree, but he does not say that the mind of God is the only one and that all other minds are illusion. That's what all the masters of non-duality say. He says that the cosmos is the screen I'm looking at and nothing else exists. and he also says that the deeper he goes, he finds an almost unbearable loneliness.

@Breakingthewall 'your mind is all there is' and 'God's mind is all there is' are the same sentence.  

What is the difference between 'my hand's fingers' and 'my body's fingers'?  Absolutely the same fingers.  There is no 'your mind' that isn't 'God's mind'. 

[Breakingthewall]

6 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

@Breakingthewall 'your mind is all there is' and 'God's mind is all there is' are the same sentence.  

What is the difference between 'my hand's fingers' and 'my body's fingers'?  Absolutely the same fingers.  There is no 'your mind' that isn't 'God's mind'. 

Agree , but we are not talking about that, we are talking about: are there infinite bubbles of apparent illusion occurring, or just one? ok that none is real, but being unreal, do others have their own apparent perception or do I only have it? according to leo, only me, according to rupert spira or bashar, many. I have done 5 meo and I have seen: the entire cosmos is my perception, there is nothing else. but is this real because I have seen it doing 5 meo? for me it is not relevant, could be a misunderstanding 

I don't do 5meo to understand, I do it to loosen the walls of the ego, and understand while sober, in meditation

Edited March 11, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[OBEler]

@all mods, please talk with Leo about a better language Keys for understanding solipsism.so much misunderstanding and even fake Gurus here to preach it in mad ways which drive people to insanity. 

If my limited human bubble is all there is, but god includes all sentient beings and objects, all must be in my bubble right now, even if I as limited human am not conscious of it. 

Someone here said, you need an awakening to it to understand. This is honest at least. Trying to grasp it with logical mind is leading to nowhere

Edited March 11, 2022 by OBEler

[Mason Riggle]

@Breakingthewall consider it like this.. is this forum 'just your imagination' or 'does it objectively exist beyond your awareness of it'??  

Can you tell ANY difference between those two options???   

If you can't tell the difference, then it doesn't matter which it is.  

There ARE many other perspectives, as long as it seems that way (is how it's imagined to be) to you.  

[Mu_]

6 hours ago, Mips said:

As per the title. Solipsism as a distressing aspect mental illness, often in tandem with other symptoms is quite common - in fact both my wife & daughter have gone through this. I've seen this described as 'normie' solipsism. My daughter, 15 at the time, went through hell with this.

What's the difference between this and the solipsism experienced with awakening? 

I made a video answering this question, perhaps it can help you and your loved ones in the future.