Being a western foreigner in China.

[Spence94]

I've lived in China for 5 years. I'm not fully fluent in the language but getting there slowly but surely. I will be living here for a few more years to come. Still after 5 years, it can be hard to feel at home here, in myself and with other people. As you can imagine its 99.9%Chinese and 0.1% foreigners. I am well and truly in the minority.

Particularly in the last 3 years since the relations with the US and west have declined and with covid raging abroad much more than it did in China and now the Ukraine crisis; attitudes towards westerners in this country are to put it lightly, at a low point. 

On one level, I'm aware that no matter how fluent my Chinese and how much I understand the culture, I will always be an outsider to the Chinese, and that's fine. Also, I'm aware that I grew up in the UK and that my psychology and worldview is heavily influenced by the society and culture I was raised in and that on an ethnic level I am not Asian, therefore will always feel some level of disconnect in that regard.

I guess I'm after a spiritual perspective on the issue, so that I can accept reality, think about the situation in a more optimistic way, and be at peace with the context that I am living in. I want to more deeply enjoy my time and experience in China, with Chinese culture,  with the Chinese language and the Chinese people, who are more often than not kind hearted, lovely, beautiful and wonderful wise souls. I want to engage with those souls in a way that make them feel more safe and comfortable, because it seems they often have all kinds of fears, judgements, projections, pre conceived ideas and stereotypes of foreigners/ westerners during the rare time they meet/ interact with one. 

[Cathal]

relatively on a human level : i think the weight of not being accepted is not really bypassable in any perspective in the sense it will cause you emotional pain in what you feel as disconnection (again, on an emotional level) and it's hard work to find people who really understand you because being understood means feeling understood and that makes you feel belonged and accepted, but that starts within

in the absolute: you are dreaming it all but you are attached, you are just judging them that they are judging you, you are projecting that they are projecting, you have a belief they have a stereotype of you, you percieve all of this to justify why you are suffering. you are identified with all of this noise in your head so you go on creating that reality for yourself

anyways, i can relate to the consistenty part - that's the real issue i see here in my eyes, you need to be around people consistently otherwise you go in and out of ruts, and the only thing for you to  is sit down on a chair and really try to create a solution like it's just a math problem for you to solve, how do i create a situation for myself where i can be around people who accept me and i accept them and we enjoy each others company consistently? that's a big challenge in your situation,

but you shouldn't settle and fight to really find a solution

[ValiantSalvatore]

@Spence94 I dunno where you live in China I lived in China for 6 months. I generally had a similar experience that most of the time people are kind hearted, lovely and beautiful. I stayed in Beijing and my company also had some foreigners from the EU and I was able to meet them through the agency that brought them there. I am from Germany, but half American as well as half/half in ethnicity white and black. 

Fears, judgements, projections etc. I've seen most of it there, besides violence. I generally still would say my experience with it was better then in the E.U as people are not as hypocritcal and deny the differences. 

I am unsure what the post is about. I'd love to provide feedback, yet I can only relate to the experience partially, also 5 years is an enormously long time staying in a foreign country and culture. When I travlled through China to Shanghai and Xiamen as well as a couple of other cities. Mainly in the big ones Beijing, Shanghai I meet a lot of westerners in hostels. Many stayed there to study or are teachers.

For example I was talking to three english teachers two from the U.K and one from the U.S (all white) talking about life conditions there. Most seemed to love it and earned a decent amount of money from what I can recall. Yet had struggles with relationships and finding new opportunities besides gaining some certificates? For teaching higher level english or w/e. Some were torn between continuing living there, good food, awesome people, a lot of comaredery, generally cheap, awesome culture, amazing travel opportunities inside the country and going back to western lives. 

Also the level of propaganda is quiet insane if you compare it to the west, visiting for example the Temple of Heaven in Beijing with my chinese boss, he explained to me that old people are singing to the state and it's glory worshipping it close to god. I asked him and he said it's not really his "tea" although he had a deep respect for chinese culture etc.

Hope you are doing fine I saw some weird shit on YouTube channels explaining some issues living in China, I don't know if it is bloated "haze". Yet, he explained westerns not allowed to travel outside the country, goverment denying stuff etc. Accusations of rape because of visiting massage palors and being beaten then police not doing anything because he is western.

Again unsure where you live I found an apparently legit meditation teacher who tought westerners, yet the group was quiet exclusive as they meet via WeChat and the organizer was the kind of women who is deeply stuck in orange, she was unable to just add me to the group and let me do stuff on her own lol. So, I was unable to join. I bet you can also do awesome first class retreats in Burma/Vietnam with legit masters etc. As it was rather difficult finding something in regards to spirituality that was not tai chi. Which would be hardcore, if you are into that stuff. You definitely should contact Shinzen Young or Janusz Welin I once asked them for retreat locations of legit masters as I wanted to stay there for 3 months etc. 
https://deepmindfulness.io/about
https://www.twitch.tv/deepmindfulness

You can ask questions live there are not many people and the dude is very open he did a retreat in Burma and hit stream entry, that was my question... 

I do think the seperation you feel is quiet normal on a relative level, I liked for example the level of compassion of the chinese people a lot as well as the what ever works works attitude and focus on skill development and consistently appreciating that. All the craftsmanship I saw in China was amazing and blew me away, temples, just even how nature sculpted itself etc. Let alone how one country can be so big. At the sametime I missed my western friends and lifestyle feeling not restraint in this giant box which was Beijing and the "mega city" life.  Also just by my teenage upbringing and friendships I feel a lot closer to asian people usually, I mainly missed the casual conversations and just spending time walking around with western friends, eating, drinking, laughing etc. I loved living in China and would most likely move there again.

I attempted learning chinese on my own, yet I did not get very far , so I know how that undertaking feels. I tried reading and speaking mainly. 

[Spence94]

@catcat69123 Thank you. I am reading a book on buddhism right now, I think it is going to help. It's mostly in my head. 

'judging them for judging me', yes.

More mindful management and investigation of the emotions of feeling misunderstood and not seen also.

[Spence94]

@ValiantSalvatore Thank you for sharing your experience of China. Foreigners who come here whilst they have a great time, all struggle with integration to various degrees. I'm going harder on the language now, it will definitely help me break some of those barriers once I'm proficiently fluent enough. 

Most of it is in my head and just trying to become aware of the ego, identity, attachment and illusions that I am falling prey too that are specifically manifesting under the context of me living in this country and culture and with the people here. If that makes sense. 

Struggle to articulate it but I just sensed it was mainly some kind of attachment issue causing me to see reality in a warped perception which was therefore leading me to engage with the country and people in an unresourceful manner that was creating suffering as well just not able to get the most juice of my time here in this amazing country.

All happening along with the realities of living and working here day to day which can be challenging to say the least

It's also just my own level of overall self development and actualization, the more I mature and evolve, the better my relationships and interactions with the country and people around me.

 

Edited March 10, 2022 by Spence94

[ValiantSalvatore]

@Spence94 You're welcome . Yeah living and working is definitely challenging. I was happy that they have so many restaurants and the food is usually very good. Then coming home and studying chinese etc. 

Wish you much success in your personal development as well as self-actualization endeavours. As well as studying chinese.

[Spence94]

@ValiantSalvatore Thanks for your wishes! Yep, Chinese food is amazing and never seen so many restaurants in one place. I live in Sichuan, Chengdu. If you ever fly back for a visit, holla at me. Sichuan province is gorgeous and Chengdu is dope. It's super chill, Tibet close by, so there's spiritual vibration. Lots of nature, daoist mountains and Buddhist temples. I studied Taichi and qigong for 2 months in the summer down in Guangxi too.

[BipolarGrowth]

I went to China with my native friend a couple years ago. I can definitely see how living there as a westerner would be suboptimal in ways. I don’t have much advice to give though. Maybe find some friends through a hobby, sport, or spiritual endeavor that people do in groups. This might help it feel more comfortable. 

[Spence94]

@BipolarGrowth Yeah I'm definitely focusing more on buidling a like minded community and network this year through yoga, taichi and mindfulness focused groups with both other westerners and local Chinese. It makes a difference. The alternative is drowning your China demons in beer each night which is an unfortunate reality for a lot of westerners living here. 

[ValiantSalvatore]

@Spence94 I looked briefly at the skyline it's beautiful! I don't know if I ate Sichuan hotpot, but I love freaking hotpot and Sichuan is the hotpot state  IIRC. 

Also learning Tai Chi I personally think is just cool I've tried it once at an retreat in person from a guy. It was actually difficult only for one day and 30 minutes though lol.

9 hours ago, Spence94 said:

The alternative is drowning your China demons in beer each night which is an unfortunate reality for a lot of westerners living here. 

I know what you mean . 

You should definitely get in contact with Shinzen he's been quite adamant about dispersing his unified mindfulness to chinese culture, as spirituality is dying there. Also his unified mindfulness is quiet popular there and I bet you'd find a lot of friends and contacts via him in China. I only know one way to contact one of the life practice programm attendes who lives dircetly in China. A chinese guy who likes Ken Wilber called Sheekus. Via the integral forum, yet I don't know how often he uses it. 

Otherwise you can 100% contact Shinzen formally him via the site linked below. You can easily apply and ask all kind of questions, for instance also just I am an intermediate meditator learning shinzens system etc. wanting to ask for how I can spread mindfulness through chinese culture at best finding new contacts and people to teach and learn from etc. Don't be shy in that sense. I usually try to attend this once a year, as this is exclusive time to speak with a legit western master in that sense and to check-in with my level of practice. He'd also love your pretty sure for having interst in Chinese culture and tradition. Usually not as many people apply, yet I can give you the e-mail of the organizer in case you want to reach out that way, in case she still does it. Yet not publically if I still have it or her skype contact and she'd be pleased about hearing brining mindfulness to the east via Shinzen. Also Shinzen is a giant fan of asian culture, that should not be a secret.

https://www.lifepracticeprogram.com/guest-info

Also, hell yes if I ever go to China again especially for a longer time I'll contact you! I'd doubt at this point that it will happen, yet you never know. 

Unsure who else to ask there are also unified mindfulness coaches in China pretty sure through Shinzen, I bet he can link you up, bet it's via Facebook though so VPN might be neccessary. 

Hope this helps and again. Much success and good luck!

Edited March 11, 2022 by ValiantSalvatore

[puporing]

I wouldn't want to live there at your level of development. One could argue that it is more "grist for the mill" but it's also not something pleasurable to deal with in the relative. You can have compassion towards something but don't have to force yourself into an incompatible situation long term. Not sure what is keeping you there many people leave after awhile.

[PepperBlossoms]

I never felt like I fit in either.  I think the lack of diversity is a huge one with people staring and taking photos of you and how like you said, basically 99.99% Chinese in the mainland.  Also it felt very harsh to live there.

The plants and food were cool.  The cities seemed like it was more aggressive to live in than the cities I am used to in my country.  The people honking at you, the people everywhere, the air pollution, the lack of sunlight, the buildings everywhere all densely, the tree after tree after tree after tree on the highway, etc.

[Leo Gura]

@Spence94 You might appreciate this YT channel of an English China vlogger, he covers this issue a lot:

Really good vlogger on China issues from the inside.

[Ulax]

Perhaps, see that it is likely that the issues that tehy have with westerners comes from a fight part of them looking to protect a scared, terrified child part of them that just wants to be safe in the world.

[LSD-Rumi]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Spence94 You might appreciate this YT channel of an English China vlogger, he covers this issue a lot:

Really good vlogger on China issues from the inside.

How is he allowed to do so?

[Spence94]

@LSD-Rumi As long as you don't talk shit about the Chinese government or criticize the people and culture you're allowed to share your perspectives and opinions here.

Two popular vloggers that did get deported a couple of years ago were starting to openly criticize government decisions, mock Xi and just rant about how much they disliked the changes happening in the society. They were Vlogging here for about a decade before they eventually got kicked out because they started moaning about everything.

Daily life in China for the majority of people  is actually a lot more 'open' and 'free' than people outisde of China realize. You just can't question or criticize the government.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Spence94

[PurpleTree]

1 hour ago, LSD-Rumi said:

How is he allowed to do so?

think he lives in the u.s.

the guy seems a bit questionable imo, i don't fully trust him but also haven't watched his vids in years

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, PurpleTree said:

think he lives in the u.s.

He def lives in China.

He should be careful cause they will deport him for the posts he makes lately.

[PurpleTree]

27 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

He def lives in China.

He should be careful cause they will deport him for the posts he makes lately.

"In 2019, Sterzel moved to Los Angeles because he felt that he would lose his life or be incarcerated in China following threats by ultranationalist Internet users and the government, who accused Sterzel's wife of being a spy and a threat to national security.[18]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winston_Sterzel

 

 

[Girzo]

@PurpleTree Yes, I even remember this being discussed on this forum.